Oh yeah, we want EVERY vote counted...

Great Debates
61

Freedom2

I think that 45 days should be plenty of time. Here is the statute (or part of it, I cut it for brevity) from here

(4)(a) To each absent qualified elector overseas who has requested an absentee ballot, the supervisor of elections shall, not fewer than 35 days before the first primary election, mail an absentee ballot. Not fewer than 45 days before the second primary and general election, the supervisor of elections shall mail an advance absentee ballot to those persons requesting ballots for such elections. The advance absentee ballot for the second primary shall be the same as the first primary absentee ballot as to the names of candidates, except that for any offices where there are only two candidates, those offices and all political party executive committee offices shall be omitted. Except as provided in s. 99.063(4), the advance absentee ballot for the general election shall be as specified in s. 101.151, except that in the case of candidates of political parties where nominations were not made in the first primary, the names of the candidates placing first and second in the first primary election shall be printed on the advance absentee ballot. The advance absentee ballot or advance absentee ballot information booklet shall be of a different color for each election and also a different color from the absentee ballots for the first primary, second primary, and general election. The supervisor shall mail an advance absentee ballot for the second primary and general election to each qualified absent elector for whom a request is received until the absentee ballots are printed. The supervisor shall enclose with the advance second primary absentee ballot and advance general election absentee ballot an explanation stating that the absentee ballot for the election will be mailed as soon as it is printed; and, if both the advance absentee ballot and the absentee ballot for the election are returned in time to be counted, only the absentee ballot will be counted.

What the heck is this supposed to mean? I supported my military member’s tail right through college! In addition to dating a Marine for 10 years, my father was a corpsman in Korea, and my maternal grandfather fought in the South Pacific. My paternal grandfather was at Normandy, and two of my great uncles died in Europe (one was at the liberation of Baden Baden). So DON’T tell me who supports the military.

Nope again. I am 32 and have had more than my share of dorm rooms, but I’m not in one now. I am a temporary residence of TX. I vote in MI by absentee ballot.

62

… Unless you are a member of the board of canvassars in Palm Beach County.

By the way, MSNBC is reporting that a postmark is not a requirement for an overseas absentee vote. What they are basing this upon, I am not sure.

63

I believe you may be mistaking rules of law and standards individual boards of canvassars use. Under the rule of law, it seems in Florida, that the individual boards of canvassars set their standards. If that’s true, then it is truly up to them to do so, and when and how they chose. So, it isn’t a contradiction.

64

Freedom2 from what I can gather, no postage is required for a FEDERAL absentee ballot. You can clearly see here (this site) That state law superceeds Federal Law.

-CITE-

42 USC Sec. 1973ff-2                                         01/05/99

-EXPCITE-

TITLE 42 - THE PUBLIC HEALTH AND WELFARE CHAPTER 20 - ELECTIVE FRANCHISE

SUBCHAPTER I-G - REGISTRATION AND VOTING BY ABSENT UNIFORMED
SERVICES VOTERS AND OVERSEAS VOTERS IN ELECTIONS FOR FEDERAL
OFFICE

-HEAD-

Sec. 1973ff-2. Federal write-in absentee ballot for overseas voters in general elections for Federal office

-STATUTE-

(a) In generalThe Presidential designee shall prescribe a Federal write-in absentee ballot (including a secrecy envelope and mailing envelope for such ballot) for use in general elections for Federal office by overseas voters who make timely application for, and do not receive, States, absentee ballots.

(b) Submission and processing. Except as otherwise provided in this subchapter, a Federal write-in absentee ballot shall be submitted and processed in the manner provided by law for absentee ballots in the State involved.

A Federal write-in absentee ballot of an overseas voter shall not be counted -

    (1) if the ballot is submitted from any location in the United States;

    (2) if the application of the overseas voter for a State absentee ballot is received by the appropriate State election official less than 30 days before the general election; or

    (3) if a State absentee ballot of the overseas voter is received by the appropriate State election official not later than the deadline for receipt of the State absentee ballot under State law.

(c) Special rules. The following rules shall apply with respect to Federal write-in absentee ballots:

    (1) In completing the ballot, the overseas voter may designate a candidate by writing in the name of the candidate or by writing in the name of a political party (in which case the ballot shall be counted for the candidate of that political party).

    (2) In the case of the offices of President and Vice President, a vote for a named candidate or a vote by writing in the name of a political party shall be counted as a vote for the electors supporting the candidate involved.

    (3) Any abbreviation, misspelling, or other minor variation in the form of the name of a candidate or a political party shall be disregarded in determining the validity of the ballot, if the intention of the voter can be ascertained.

(d) Second ballot submission; instruction to overseas voter. An overseas voter who submits a Federal write-in absentee ballot and later receives a State absentee ballot, may submit the State absentee ballot. The Presidential designee shall assure that the instructions for each Federal write-in absentee ballot clearly state that an overseas voter who submits a Federal write-in absentee ballot and later receives and submits a State absentee ballot should make every reasonable effort to inform the

appropriate State election official that the voter has submitted more than one ballot.

(e) Use of approved State absentee ballot in place of Federal write-in absentee ballot

  The Federal write-in absentee ballot shall not be valid for use in a general election if the State involved provides a State absentee ballot that -

    (1) at the request of the State, is approved by the

Presidential designee for use in place of the Federal write-in absentee ballot; and

    (2) is made available to overseas voters at least 60 days before the deadline for receipt of the State ballot under State law.

(f) Certain States exempted

  A State is not required to permit use of the Federal write-in absentee ballot, if, on and after August 28, 1986, the State has in effect a law providing that -

    (1) a State absentee ballot is required to be available to any voter described in section 1973ff-6(5)(A) of this title at least 90 days before the general election involved; and

    (2) a State absentee ballot is required to be available to any voter described in section 1973ff-6

(5)(B) or © of this title, as soon as the official list of candidates in the general election is complete.

-SOURCE-

(Pub. L. 99-410, title I, Sec. 103, Aug. 28, 1986, 100 Stat. 925.)

-SECREF-

               SECTION REFERRED TO IN OTHER SECTIONS

This section is referred to in sections 1973ff, 1973ff-1, 1973ff-6 of this title.

65

Section 1S-2.013 of Florida Statues states the following: (7) With respect to the presidential preference primary and the general election, any absentee ballot cast for a federal office by an overseas elector which is **postmarked OR signed and dated **no later than the date of the Federal election shall be counted if received no later than 10 days from the date of the Federal election as long as such absentee ballot is otherwise proper. Overseas electors shall be informed by the supervisors of elections of the provisions of this rule, i.e., the ten day extension provision for the presidential preference primary and the general election, and the provision for voting for the second primary.

???/

I think all Federal Law trumps State laws, all the time, unless the Federal Law is ruled unconstitutional.

Either way, I think we will see this resolved in a couple of days. And either way, I think it shows Gore’s contempt for the military, and his hypocrisy in calling for all votes to be counted. I do not want those votes to be counted. I want them remembered as Gore’s last slap across the face to the men and women who keep this country free.

66

States are allowed to put many, many, many restrictions on Federal Law. And in this case, the Federal seems to bow to the State law. Did read the cite?

As for this:

Remember ONE of these guys served active duty in the Military (ok so Bush was in the National Guard). Oddly enough, Bush avoided active service (much like Clinton) due to his family status, and yet it doesn’t seem to bother military personal

If you had actually read the proposals from both candidates you would have seen that Gore was proposing more that twice the money for military spending than was Bush ($100 billion over 4 years vs $45 billion going mostly for R&D of new weapons) and tha Bush has some pretty goofy ideas about military spending including “skipping a generation” of weapons instead of replacing the ones used today.

Let’s face it. The military almost always votes for the GOP regardless of it’s candidate.

67

And would you agree that there is nothing we can do about it this time around? Florida knows that it has a flawed butterfly ballot and possible complications because of the punch card system. It has until the next election to correct the problems. Is this fair to the voters who had their vote disqualified? No, when doubt has been cast on the legitimacy of the votes, then it’s safer to throw 'em out.

Likewise, the military has now identified problems with the absentee ballot system. It has until the next election to correct the rpoblems. Is this fair to the servicemen who had their vote disqualifed? No, but doubt has been cast on the legitimacy of their vote. When there’s doubt, it’s safer to throw out. Can anyone say with certainity that these votes were mailed by the deadline and not the day after?

And it’d be a sad day in our country when the military handles the ballots for its next Commander-in-chief in such a half-assed manner. It’s one thing to let personal mail to go out unmarked, or to take a few days to get around to mailing it. Clearly, ballots have much, much larger impact on the nation thanJohnny’s letter home. Therefore, there should be no logical reason to treat the two in the same way.

Ok, I can understand that our servicemen are in areas without postal services and if they had only known about the election for a few weeks and had to get their vote in before a tight deadline, I could understand the lack of date stamp.

However, the military has known for four years that there would be a Presidential election this month. That is four years to provide units with a post marking device (my office has one the size of a book). They’re not overly expensive and extremely portable. If electricity is a problem, then a handheld date stampers could work just as well, and then you could have officers on hand to certify each ballot that it was received by the deadline.

We are a sophisticated military. Handling ballots legally is not an insurmountable problem.

68

I’m tempted to make all sorts of generalizations about how you liberals just don’t get it. More money does not always equal better. You always think you know what is best for another group, and if they think differently, then they must be biased.
Ok. I got that out of my system. Stepping away from generalizations…The majority of the people in the military HATE Clinton/Gore. They do not hate them because they are democrats, they hate them because of what they have seen them do to the military. You may be under the impression that the military should embrace the person who promises them more money, but I guess they are looking a little deeper into the situation than you.

Gore wants to deploy them much more than Bush. A less deployed military under Bush could reasonably be expected to have more money to spend on training and equiptment than an over deployed military under Gore would. Their morale would also be higher if they had money to train properly, and were not deplyed all over the world all the time.
The balls you have to suggest that you are in a better position to decide who would be better for the military, than those who are actually in it kills me.
I also did not see you address this little bit of Florida law:

Bolded for ease of reference of course.

69

hey Freedom did ya notice that Lieberman has called for those ballots to be re-evaluated pretty much just on the basis of “let’s not disenfranchise our military personnel”?

also found this interesting from CBS News Chief Washington Correspondent Bob Schieffer

A Time Out Just in Time

(and in the interest of fighting ignorance, I finally learned how to put in a cite so that words instead of the url code would show!!)

70

haven’t got anything to add, haven’t even read the thread (the cheek of it!). just typed in ‘election’ on search and here i am with a quick question that i want a quick answer to if it pleases the reader?
having just read an article on bbc news, it was lightly touched upon that some black voters may have been refused entry to polling stations in tallahassee, wherever that might be. would like to know if this is true, and if so the very sensible reasons i’m sure behind such a move?!?
:rolleyes: :mad: rolled into one.

71

Freedom2I saw your cite, if it makes you feel better… YOUR’RE SUPER!!! You are indeed right. Once again YOU’RE SUPER!! Does it make you feel better to have a liberal agree with you? I have already stated that I think the votes should count. You have said they shouldn’t. Where is the argument, you’re proving ME right.

Are you in the military? Where, how, when, how long? I haven’t made any assumptions about the military other than those that have been made by YOUR guys. I have heard on more than one occasion “most military personal vote Republican”. Do you disagree?

It was Bush (the elder) who deployed troops to the Mid East.

From the Gy. Sgt. standing next to me: “The majority of the military does not hate Clinton/Gore. The MAJORITY of the military doesn’t even vote. A deployed military is a well-trained military. There are only three bases in the U.S. where you can drop 500lb bombs.”

I suppose you think he’s my imaginary friend, but he just got a nice haircut.

But were’re getting away from the argument.

72

Stimpy, there are some news stories out that the police set up roadblocks checking ID’s right by a voting place on election day, in a predominately black neighborhood. I’m relatively certain that the cops in FL are allowed to set up check lanes, but I would also suspect that some investigation is warrented to try and ascertain the purpose for this one. It can be seen as an intimidation tactic, where the assumption would be that black voters would vote for Gore. FTR-I don’t believe that if an investigation is done that they will find that any higher level Rep. gave a “go ahead” to this. It is one of the troubling aspects of this particular election. also FTR, there was a Gore campaigner who gave rides to homeless folks in WI to the polling place and gave them cigarettes as well - the ride is ok, the cig is not. Investigation going on.

Not our proudest moments.

73

Regardless if they vote or not, they hate Clinton. And an OVER-deployed military, such as we have now does not equal a well trained military. Neither does a “spread-out military.”

And what exactly do you mean by saying that there are only 3 bases in America where someone can drop 500lb bombs? That is a ridiculous statement in the first place, and in the second I have no idea what point you are trying to make with it.

That being said. I’m glad you think I’m super.:slight_smile:

74

has carl hiassen started writing the book yet?:wink:

75

99 PIECES OF CHAD ON THE FLOOR,

99 PIECES OF CHAD,

YOU FLICK ONE MORE,

A VOTE FOR GORE!

100 PIECES OF CHAD ON THE FLOOR!

76

No; I wouldn’t agree to that at all. Particularly given the recent revelations that a postmark isn’t necessary on an overseas military absentee ballot, only that it be properly signed and dated, and received within 10 days of the election.

If it is proven that the Gore camp had involvement in that memo distributed by “an advisor” of their’s instructing Democratic canvassars on how to contest and throw out overseas military ballots, and that the memo is behind the large percentage of such ballots thrown out in the heavily Democratic counties, THIS RACE IS OVER. GORE LOSES.

Popular opinion come Monday, when more people find out about this, is going to swing dramatically away from Gore. The memo, and stories about taped chads over Bush-punches and Bush ballots in Gore piles but no such errors in Bush piles, are going to cause all non-partisan people to realize why a hand-count is pointless, and moves the country further away from a more accurate count; not closer to one.

Lastly, all of the above will sway the Florida Supreme Court to side with the Secretary of State and declare this puppy over. And if Gore chooses to fight it beyond that point, public opinion will swing even more widely against him.

He won’t.

Bush has already won this; you just don’t know it yet. But you read it here (maybe) first.

77

freedom2 wrote:

But a military in retreat does?

78

Hey Freedom2, what’s all this???

and

Etc., etc…

Have you no intention of honoring your bet with Danielinthewolvesden? :wink:

79

First, a kudos to panzerman for his post about halfway up the previous page concerning mail in the military.

As a former servicemember who was tapped twice for Postal Detail during the extremely busy XMas season, I can attest to the validity of his assertion.

Some things many who are not/have not been in the military need to realize:

  1. Mail is a morale issue, not a mission issue. Even in something as important as a Presidential Election, bags of mail may sit around as a lower priority item whilst more important things (like vehicle/aircraft parts, fuel, ammo and food; the proverbial “beans and bullets”) take priority on transportation assets.

  2. Through no fault of our current C-n-C, the military has been downsized to the lowest point prior to the Reagan Administration, but is maintaining a higher operational tempo than ever. This has lead to morale problems, leading to retention/recruitment problems, which leads to manpower shortages (no sexism intended), which leads to even higher operational tempos on the part of the deployed units, leading to increased wear-and-tear on the vehicles and aircraft performing those missions, with less time and personnel for maintenece in between missions.

The net effect of this is that fewer vehicles are being used by fewer people to get a difficult job done a long way from home, and whatever capacity the prime movers have (it’s even tighter for the Navy and Marine Expeditionary Units, as everything must be flown in aircraft with definite and fixed weight limits, or transported on slower surface vessels) is reserved for “beans and bullets”.

Logistics are a bitch, and the military has higher priorities (oddly enough, this makes sense if you believe in a “mission first” attitude) than keeping the troops happy with mail from home. Even highly important mail like ballots for a presidential election.

While I personally have a bias towards extending special consideration to the military ballots coming in, I’m forced to agree that, if we are going to go by the letter of the law, improper and/or late military ballots must be excluded.

Actually, any impropely filled out ballot should be excluded, regardless of origin. If the ballot layout is confusing, then correct it for the next election.

If impropriety is afoot, good people of conscience need to set aside partisan issues and come forward, and the accusations investigated by sworn officers of the law and, if substantial evidence warrants, prosecuted to the full extent of the law, as an example to other potential naughty folks in future elections.

If I were a servicemember (heck, I can still do it as a concerned citizen and veteran), I would write not only my Congresspeople, by the members of the Armed Services Committees of both houses of Congress to light a fire under the Joint Chief’s butts and the respective heads of the various branches, to remedy this problem for the next election.

While I’m at it, could someone please cite the law Gov. W signed into law in Texas concerning recounts? I don’t need a link (but it would be nice); just the relevant titles/chapters/paragraphs.

80

I have every intention of honoring my bet with DITWD…
Once the election is over of course. I don’t see any EC votes for either candidate certified right now, so technically I haven’t lost yet:)