Ok, all joking aside, they're not REALLY going to run Hillary, are they?

:rolleyes:

Well, perhaps if you actually took the time to study history. Or, let me put it another way…you claim that there is a better system. Fine. What is it? No bullshit, no handwaving…simply tell me what it is and prove your own point. I note that thus far you haven’t even attempted to address any points (which is usual for you)…just danced about and waved your hands. So…what is this superior system that is better than capitalism?

I decline to rise to the bait. If you want to prove your case then make a case…instead of dancing about and spouting rhetoric. What system is better? How is it better?

I’m fairly certain that those reading in the wings are well aware of who is dancing about here…and who isn’t. I’ve at least made a token effort to take a position by saying that capitalism in one form or the other is a superior economic system to any other system yet attempted. I await your pearls of wisdom as to what is a better system from either a historical or theoretical perspective (take your pick). Try making SOME kind of argument and perhaps we can actually have a debate.

-XT

Then you aren’t reading what I’m writing is all I can say. I’m sorry, I’ve been as clear as I can and I don’t really see how what I’ve written can be read that way. C’est la vie.

Assuming that your definition of ‘inadequate’ is some kind of universal: What percentage of American’s poor do you suppose live with no shelter at all? Or live in cars? 1%? 5%? 50%? 75%?

-XT

There any non-Hamiltonians in the running?

Well, if you define “poor” as living in their cars, pretty close to 100%, I would imagine. If it matters. Which I doubt.

If the answer were one percent, what would that prove? And if it were seventy-five, what would that prove?

I’m always a little confused by the claim that the poor in this country don’t have access to adequate food. I remember one day I was in line at the grocery store, buying formula for my baby. There was a woman ahead of me in line, also buying formula. There were several differences between my purchase and hers, though…

  1. I was buying the store brand, and she was buying the name brand

  2. I was buying the powder that you have to mix yourself, she was buying the pre-mixed liquid

  3. I was paying cash for mine, she was using WIC

Granted, it’s anecdotal. But are there poor families out there who don’t have access to/don’t qualify for WIC? I am serious here…I am not trying to play a “gotcha” game. WIC seems to cover nutritional needs for children, and seems relatively easy to qualify for. Are there really children in the US who can’t get adequate nutrition?

Do you define ‘poor’ as living in a car? Or living with no shelter? My own definition of ‘poor’ is a bit wider. I’m just curious.

Seems self evident to me, but ok. If it were 1% of the poor (or less, as I suspect), then what it would ‘prove’ is that 99% of your poor population did in fact have adequate shelter (ed. Or at least SOME kind of shelter). So, the problem, while very real, would be manageable…perhaps acceptable (to society as a whole as a trade off). If, on the other hand the figure was 75% of a nations poor did not any shelter, then that would mean that only 25% of your poor had some kind of shelter…which would be a major problem indeed.

So, its a matter of determining all that ‘greatest good’ stuff that socialists and communist types are always talking about. If a fairly large percentage of what a given nation define of as ‘poor’ live with no shelter at all then this could certainly be a problem (we won’t get into the overall percentage of the total population that is in fact considered poor…at least not yet)…while if its a fairly small percentage of folks considered ‘poor’ don’t have adequate shelter then the problem is not as great (though I want to point out I’m not saying its no problem at all).

So, I ask again (now that I’ve explained the point): What percentage of America’s poor don’t in fact have any shelter at all? What percentage live in cars or boxes or such? This should be an easier question to answer as it doesn’t require the objective definition of what ‘adequate shelter’ is or isn’t…said definition being variable depending on one’s perspective.

-XT

Well, duh! Sarah, if I were to relate to you every experience I’ve had which directly and unequivocally validates my opinions and biases, you and I would both be dead of old age before I got through Volume 2! There’s a reason anecdotal evidence isn’t widely accepted here. It’s because anecdotal evidence sucks dead donkey balls! Its the number one cause of premature death in hamsters!

Of course it’s private ownership. It’s not up for grabs to whomever wants to seize it, is it?

I honestly don’t even understand what you’re saying. Lead follow or get out of the way of what? My concept of justice is not the same as yours, so no, I will neither lead, follow, nor get out of the way wrt your concept justice.

By the way… the idea that America’s wealth derives from resources we hold in common is a statement of political philosophy. See, you’re a philosopher and you didn’t even know it!

Gee, wait till I tell Mom!

I don’t know as how that’s really all that philosophical, to me, its one of those “self-evident” thingys. Too simple for anything so grand as philosophy. Its our country, we own it, if we don’t, then who does?

But, if you say its philosophy, John, hell, that’s good enough for me!

Well, it would be true if the only way to create wealth was to dig it out of the ground. But that isn’t the main way wealth is created. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates didn’t dig anything out of the ground. They came up with an idea and created something that didn’t previously exist. Wealth is not a zero sum game.

Is it faith based or do you have some kind of reason for why you feel its ‘self-evident’? Based on history I’m not seeing it. Take Russia as a for instance. Russia has vast natural resources. They even had that wonderful philosophy you seem to like about the collective ownership of all those resources, coupled with all that nice forward thinking central planning stuff.

And yet…which nation produced more wealth between the US and Russia? Why? If its just a matter of digging it out of the ground and anyone could do it…well, why didn’t anyone just do it?

I’m unsure what all this has to do with Hillary, but its been an interesting side discussion thus far. :stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

Sure it is John. Thats why increasingly wealth is concentrated more and more in the hands of a shrinking minority…while the rest of us get poorer and poorer. There is only so much booty that can be dug out of the ground after all.

The dialectic clearly states that in the end there can be only one (queue ominous Highlander music sequence)…

:stuck_out_tongue:

-XT

A note on hunger in the US.

Damn, XT, I know I’m not as smart as I think I am, but thank God I’m not as stupid as you think I am.

The history of the Soviet Union, taken in isolation, is far more complicated than your simplistic formula suggests. Bring in international factors, and in sinks without a trace. You can’t be serious! That the whole reason for Soviet failure was simply the political ideology that its government pretended to embrace? Stalin wasn’t a Communist, Stalin was a Stalinist! Hell, they got clobbered in WWII, the wonder isn’t that they didn’t thrive, the wonder is that they even survived! Hell, they lost better than 20 million people! And that was after Stalin had screwed them over, but good.

A planned economy doesn’t work? OK, then we’ll find another way. We’re Americans, that’s what we’re good at.

And, by the by, I’m pretty sure “self evident”, as in holding these truths, is, in fact, a statement of faith. A new kind of statement of faith, fit for a new world order. Our revolution, our inspirtation, and our burden.

Right. The GOP “hate machine” has been spewing out lies half-lies and propaganda about her for a decade now. They have got quite a few rather smart dudes actually believing that the hatred for HC is so high she can’t win. Well,yes, amoung those who would never ever vote for any Dem for Prez anyway they are likely right.

I know a couple dudes living on food stamps and disabilty. Yes, they do have to think of some intersting new ways to cook that damn beans and rice they get as a hand out, so their diet is boring all to hell and back- but none are “hungry” or “starving”. Bored, sure. “Not eating well”- maybe but many dudes making more eat worse (by choice, true).

Bill will campaign for her (if he knows what’s good for him…) He will campaign long and hard, there will be concerns for his health, America will look and say “Well, hell, if the Big Dog loves her that much, maybe she’s all right!”

If it takes a heart attack, he’ll do it. Owes her that much.

During WWII a planned and controlled economy worked pretty well. And don’t say that’s because there was a war. All the war did as far as economics is concerned was to furnish a big market. The war also made it politically possible to impose the restrictions needed for the planned economy.

Hadn’t thought of that one, Dave! Good ammo!

But I’d still have to suggest that the war had a lot to do with it, in that it awakened that same collective spirit of a nation I’ve been harping on. If only we can recreate that same spirit without having to resort to such…drastic measures.

A large percentage of the poor are children. They are not eligible for disability. Did you feed any homeless people within the last month? It kind of makes you appreciate family values in a different way.

I don’t understand how some of you can be so okay with people living in boxes in America. Or with single shots of medication that cost thousands of dollars. How can you be satisfied with letting someone’s daddy die because he can’t afford the right cancer treatment? What kind of human being shrugs his shoulders and says that thats just the way things go?

xtisme, some of those Scandanavian countries have had it very good for a long time now. One of the things I didn’t see when I was in Denmark for several weeks was homeless people. In fact, I didn’t see anyone who appeared to be poor or areas of the country that looked like people lived there in poverty.

They also didn’t carry any kind of medical insurance – not even for having babies. There was no need to. And the citizens were very proud of that. They also enjoyed the five weeks of vacation that the government required that businesses give employees every year.

Did they pay heavily in taxes? You bet! The family that I stayed with paid about 40% of their income to the government. They owned the second largest antique house in Denmark. It was a block long and four stories high. They lived on an island in a house overlooking the sea and they lived well but not ostentaciously. They were very proud of their country and their system of government and very happy with their lives.

Greed is good? Then let’s encourage that trait in the poor. Let’s encourage them to rise up and be greedy for their fair share and something extra to balance things out. Right?

Good ammo indeed. You guys don’t have the foggiest notion what you’re talking about. You’re griping about Bush’s deficits, around 2.5% of GDP. During WWII, the government ran massive deficits, peaking at over 30% of GDP in 1942.

All WWII proves is that you can borrow a lot of money and spend it, and temporarily boost the economy. It was not an endorsement of central planning, and it was not sustainable.

You want better models of how central planning has worked? Compare and contrast:

East Germany ca 1990 to West Germany.

South Korea to North Korea.

Taiwan to mainland China.

Hong Kong to, well, just about anyone else in Asia.

The performance of the heavily-managed British economy in the 1970’s to the much freer British economy of the 1990’s.

The United States economy in 1990’s after 15 years of deregulation and tax cuts, to the U.S. economy of the 1970’s, with highly graduated taxes and much more regulation.

The state of New Zealand agriculture when it was heavily managed, regulated, and subsidized by the government, to the state of New Zealand agriculture after the subsidies were removed and the regulations and price controls lifted.

Compare the economic performance of Singapore after it adopted free market reforms to its performance when the state controlled everything.

I could go on, and on. In every case I can think of, where two countries were fairly similar in location, population, and resources, the one that adopted the freer, more market-friendly economy dramatically outperformed the one that tried to manage its economy.

For that matter, let’s have a look at the Chinese. They aren’t Stalinists - the Chinese government sincerely tries to do right by the Chinese nation as a whole, even if it means trampling on an individual from time to time. They try to manage industry to maximize growth. They’ve tried all sorts of big socialist ideas for managing the means of production. Yet when did the Chinese economy start to take off? When it adopted free market reforms.

Planned economies fail. They always have, they always will. And for good reason: No central planner has the information needed to make rational decisions. There’s far too much of it, it changes far too rapidly, and without the incentive of prices much of it isn’t even knowable because it remains locked inside the people who lack the incentive or ability to act on it.

As a recent example, the U.S. Congress recently passed an energy bill that mandates a certain amount of ethanol in fuel. And to make sure the supply is there, ethanol gets big government subsidies. Now tell me how in hell a few hundred guys in Washington are supposed to have the foggiest notion of whether this is the right thing to do or not. Do you think they considered that they might make ethanol production so popular that they’d divert significant corn crops away from food production, driving food costs up? Did it occur to them that forcing ethanol as a solution could crowd out better solutions? That subsidizing ethanol production, then guaranteeing a market for it by mandating its use, would screw up the market, prevent prices from working, and make our energy production less efficient? They talk about energy independence, but now they’ve tied not just energy but food to the price of oil, making Americans even more sensitive to price changes in oil.

No, they didn’t consider any of those things. What they considered was:

  1. The politicians from the Midwest considered that they could buy a lot of votes and get support from Archer Daniels Midland if they voted for the bill.

  2. The politicians from the coasts, with large environmentalist constituencies, saw a program they could vote for and get enviro-cred, without having to raise taxes or the deficit, by pushing the costs onto 3rd parties (people who buy food, and people trying to compete with ethanol, mostly).

  3. The rest of them saw a popular issue of the day, and saw a no-cost-to-them way of jumping on the bandwagon.

The actual technical merits of the bill are almost irrelevant. Most of the Senators who voted didn’t even read the damned thing.

This is what central planning in a democracy looks like. It’s fundamentally incoherent and inefficient. And you want to replace a vast, interconnected web of experts, consumers, and an intricate flow of information between all interested parties in the form of prices, which allows them all to weigh the real costs and benefits of their decisions, with these yahoos. So long as they spout the right platitudes and push your little happy buttons with promises to the poor and downtrodden, you’ll vote them into office and vote to give them the power to run your lives.

If that’s what you want, fine. Just don’t pretend that it will be anywhere near as efficient at creating wealth or making the average person’s life better as will the market if you control freaks would just leave it the hell alone. And that means keeping your grubby hands off the property of others, no matter how much you want to take it from them.