I’m an agnostic and I don’t care if people use this as a departing greeting: somewhat quaint but at least they’re not trying to impose their will on my neighbors through force of law. So it’s not culturally acceptable nor inacceptable to me.
Similarly, while I am not a fan of the culture that expects ceremonial deism at the end of the oath of office and that will look down on anyone who does not say “so help me God” at the end of the oath, if an individual had a choice to say or not say it I would not be offended by their choosing to say it. Although if I were elected, I would probably not say it, less out of a desire to break with a cultural tradition out of actual (lack of) belief than out of a challenge to said cultural tradition out of principle. (Which is why I’m not a politician.)
Maybe it’s a regional thing, but all the government meetings at the top of each local level in my area say the Pledge at the start of EVERY meeting. All participants and audience members stand up and recite it together while staring blankly at the nearest flag. In fact, one town recently added it to the agenda just so they wouldn’t stand out. There was no opposition.
By “top of each local level” I mean to exclude committee meetings. Our Town, Village, City, County and School Boards, which govern their respective venues, all use the Pledge at every meeting.
I refuse to say it, but I stand up and look appropriately reverent. So far, no one has asked me why. Living with the philosophy of “choose your battles carefully,” I am not about to rock the boat on this one as I’m sure I am in the extreme minority.
Historically in my life I have felt it was more like a religious litmus test to see if we reply in kind. Doing what I do I spend alot of time in the office areas of many businesses. Religion in the workplace is FAR from dead, and discussions of “did you hear marry is marrying “one of them”” are all too common. Them being someone of a different religious background than the workers, who all seem to go to the same church. Offices and work areas with overt religious decor are more common than you might expect. I am not talking about a small crucifix over a door I am talking posters of proverbs and inspirational sayings, businesses whos names are anagrams of religious terms, and tubs of “scripture snacks” on the counter.
Get witnessed to while wandering around a bunch of exhibits featuring Biblical artifacts and horrible, horrible live “recreations” of Bible stories, mostly.
It’s sort of like a Disney recreation of Solomon’s Temple, only about a million times less professional and entertaining than it would be if Disney actually did it.
Think of it as the world’s most boring theme park.
And you honestly claim to wonder why atheists (and non-Christians in general) are pissed off at expressions of official ceremonial deism? The whole point of those phrases is just that: to claim on the part of Christianity a cultural hegemony it simply doesn’t have. Christian culture is NOT the culture of the United States as a whole, no matter how badly Christians might wish it were otherwise. I am NOT “going amidst a culture not my own” when I attend a government function, handle money, or go to school. This is MY culture every bit as much as it is theirs; our government functions should respect that, and remain scrupulously neutral on matters of faith. Currently they are not, and that’s a problem.
(Why do I suspect that the people in this thread who think having “In God We Trust” on our money is fine would have a meltdown if the US Mint started printing “We Trust In Ourselves, Because No Gods Exist” on our currency? Or if the Chief Justice added “So help me Goddess” or “So help me Allah” to the Presidential swearing in? If these phrases are just harmless platitudes, why would it matter if they were changed or removed?)
I’m afraid i’m an “us people”, not a “you people”. But i’d say that in my eyes there’s a difference between true oppression and this, which i’d call social pressure as you have below. But it’s fine for people to say that atheists aren’t patriots, moral people, or otherwise less than anyone else; I tend to disagree, and not like it, but it’s a grin and bear it situation.
I’d say this was pretty much my problem with it, too. Your government is supposed to represent the entirety of the population. Official productions of the government should follow that idea. It’s a bit of a mix of the problems that using one particular faith (that so happens to be followed by a majority) rather than elect to represent all people, and moreover as you say that by doing this it is rather claiming that such sentiments are a good representation of all people.
Therein lies the pain in the ass of the situation.
It’s fine for anyone, including the president of the country, to say that atheists aren’t real Americans and we have to grin and bear it. He doesn’t even need a reason to say it … he just feels like it.
But the first time anyone says anything disparaging about Christians and it’s and attack on faith must be dealt with.
You show me an American president who says, “I don’t think Christians should be considered real Americans,” and I’ll show you a guy who won’t be president for very long.
All things being equal … things are not very equal.
I’ve seen some reports of people getting SS letters for doing it (i.e. http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9613.htm), but I don’t know whether the reports are credible or what would happen if it ever ended up in court. I get the impression that “unfit to re-issue” is interpreted broadly, but that no one is hell bent on enforcing the law,
Or stamping “Wheres George?” If anyone wants clarification on this go to the wheresgeorge.com site. They were investigated and cleared by the Secret Service. It is not illegal.
My reaction to the story linked to in the OP is this: Obama is a Christian, and a pretty devout one by all accounts. When he adds “so help me God” to his oath, it no doubt makes it even more solemn and meaningful than it would be otherwise, and this is a good thing for the American people. Not only his he pledging his service to us, but he is doing so in the most sincere and powerful way that he can imagine. It’s irrelevant if we believe in his god, or if that part of the oath is meaningful to us…it’s meaningful to him, and it’s his oath. By adding it, he’s sending us a message of dedication to this purpose.
…or pandering to the Religious Right, whichever comes first.
Don’t get me wrong- I do think that Obama’s Christianity is valid. However, just because a President adds “So help me God” does not mean that he’s necessarily doing it because he really, truly believes.
The worst thing about it in my mind, though, is that it’s *expected *at this point. It’s just like the Lapel Pin. It doesn’t really mean anything- but if he doesn’t do it, it gives his critics just one more thing to use against him. That’s why SHMG should be disallowed. It forces everyone else who takes the pledge to vow the same thing. It institutionalizes what should be a private belief.
No, not at all. Let me use an analogy…it’s like the reason that religious people like to have their weddings in a church, and take that vow before God. It doesn’t mean that they necessarily take their marriage any more seriously than anyone else, or that they are going to work harder at it than they would otherwise. It’s just a message to themselves and others how seriously they are taking it. If you aren’t religious, you might not understand it, but it is a deeply meaningful thing to a religious person. To the point where, if the person DIDN’T want to take such a vow before God, I would wonder why. For instance, if I was marrying a very religious man, and he only wanted to have a civil ceremony with no mention of God, I would be very confused and somewhat concerned about the reason for that.
I also do think that when the going gets tough, knowing that he made that promise before God will help him. That’s the kind of thing that religious people sometimes lean on.
They don’t talk like that in my experience and I’ve known plenty.
It doesn’t really matter what you think is polite. If you want to go around from a point of resentment that someone has different cultural ideas than you do then go ahead. Generally it’s a polite greeting. You’re the only one that is expecting others to modify their behavior to suit your beliefs in this case. They are just talking like they talk.