Especially for people with webbed fingers.
[/obscure sci-fi reference]
Well, it is a double standard to argue for the word to be “erased” from general usage, and then apply the standard more vigorously when a non-black person uses the word nigger.
There’s a pretty good historical defense for why such a double standard is reasonable, but yes; there is an element of hypocrisy that can be charged against those who think “nigger” should never be used but who seem to complain more loudly when some use it than others. It’s a pretty trivial charge, in my view, but it’s technically defensible to call it hypocritical, or a double standard.
But I suspect that most blacks who fling around the term do not hold to a position that the word should never be used. Instead, for them its propriety is all around context, and so they are not being hypocritical simply because they use the word and don’t think it’s typically OK for a non-black to use it. And they can usually figure out whether the context is appropriate. A white kid who walks up to a group of black kids and says, “Hey niggers, what’s up?” is a different context from a black kid who does the same.
Heck, on this message board:
-Say “I hate niggers” : get scorned and banned
-Discuss the etymology or applications of the term “nigger” : some scorn, maybe, but possibly also engage in some serious clinical discussion
-Say “The word ‘nigger’ is bad and shouldn’t be used” : well, some mockery, as evident in this thread
But on the stormfront board:
-Say “I hate niggers” : get agreement, praise
-Discuss the etymology or applications of the term “nigger” : some scorn, maybe, but possibly also engage in some serious clinical discussion which will probably contain some elements of pseudoscience and folk etymology
-Say “The word ‘nigger’ is bad and shouldn’t be used” : get scorned and banned
Context… duh.
The “insider/outsider” rule applies here, and almost everywhere else. I can have a “girls’ night out” with my female friends. If anyone calls me a “girl,” they will get a lesson on terms of respect.
Enough, apparently, to fill up multiple pages of a thread.
Members of such a group can joke among themselves and even insult each other with words that have an entirely different impact coming from outsiders. Just accept it - along with the guiding principle that outsiders should think twice before trying to define just what should be offensive to members of a minority group.
At its worst? Assuming this is racist at all, you can’t come up with worse ways in which racism might manifest itself?
I know this is a long thread and most everyone is repeating themselves…(including GASP “moi”.)
I have changed some of my views over the course of the thread. And if you read all my posts, (not just those at the beginning) you will notice that.
I no longer believe an obscene word is obscene for everyone. Obviously context is important in any language. I’ve gotten away from calling it racism when stereotypical is more accurate. My use of the phrase …“racism at it’s worst” was way over the top, and innappropriate…sorry about that.
I do understand the “ins” versus the “outs” use of language.
I still have a problem with hearing the N word, no matter who says it. It is jarring to my ears and makes me uncomfortable. But maybe that is just my own personal problem.
I still have a problem with remembrances of my teenage years in central Florida in the 50’s with white racism all around. …I had lived as a kid on army bases before that, and experienced no racism of any kind. (Got to give it to Truman for desegregating the military).
50’s in the redneck south=
Blacks had to drink from a dirty old water fountain, next to an old usually unworking Coke machine after they moved a bunch of boxes out of the way.
Blacks had to go to their own movie theaters, couldn’t go to the much nicer white theater.
Blacks couldn’t use the bathroom at gas stations. I worked part time in gas stations back then. If a black customer asked to use the rest room (and usually they dared not even ask)…I would look around to see if anyone was watching and if not say “sure”.
The restroom afterwards would always be spotless…after a white used the bathroom I many times had a God-awful mess to clean up.
I could go on and on but I’m sure you all know all the segregationist era stories.
Anyway, one of the things that bothered me a lot back then was that blacks were seriously limited in their choice of words, phrases and even accent. They dared not “act white” in their speech because it was considered “uppity”. They had to VERY careful in their choice of words to a white woman. A white person could call a black person “boy” even if he was 60 years old and think it was fine. No way could a black call a white “boy”.
I could go on and on, but you get the gist of it.
The thing is whites justification for it was the same argument that blacks use today in “owning” the N word. Whites “owned” their use of language because it was an “in” as against an “out” thing. And blacks were the “outs”. It was justified because “it was the way things were done…get used to it.” It wasn’t even meant to be demeaning most of the time in whites’ eyes.
Maybe this adds something to the discussion. Maybe it doesn’t.
Personally, I think holding onto the word “nigger” as The Worst Word is short-sighted in its attempt to fight racism. All we’re doing is making the word powerful and a genuine insult. Why not let it drop to the levels of words like “idiot”? If a random person shouts “idiot!” at me, I’ll be more likely to laugh at the weakness of their verbal assault than be offended. I’d also just find it pretty amusing if a black person called me a “honky” or “cracker”. The main annoyance I would feel would be at the hypocrisy of the whole thing; not the word.
Besides, surely the intention is far more important than the word used. All “niggers” aren’t equal… so to speak. Using the word frankly in a relevant discussion, or quoting, or any other situation where there is clearly no genuine racism is not the same as shouting it at a black person because you hate them for their skin colour.
I’m not sure the idea itself is racist, but it does little (if anything) to get societies to a point where race doesn’t come into the equation at all. And I’m not sure any argument for why one race can do one thing and another can’t is ever going to be a good one.
What you’re missing is that it’s not anti-white racism that this is demonstrating. This is evidence of anti-black racism.
It is whites who took it upon themselves to create a racist society. It is whites, still, who have the power to define who is white and thus who can benefit from the continuing, tremendous advantages of being white on this society.
It is whites who created a whole structure of legal and social weapons to maintain this racist society and the use of the word “nigger” as an epithet was one of those weapons.
The word never was a weapon of racism in the mouths if black people, because they had no power in this structure. To the extent that a white person’s use of the word still stings is not evidence of anti-white racism. It is evidence of the immense power of the racist structure created by whites and it’s enduring ability to harm black people, even on an era in which there is nominal agreement that racism is bad.
So if you consider it unfair that white use of the word is still socially unacceptable, consider that the reason is not because black people are allowed to be racist, but rather because white people were so good at creating a racist society that its effects are taking a long time to wear off.
So to the extent that you consider it oh, so, unfair that black people can say “nigger,” but you can’t without negative social consequences, the blame is on white racism.
I kind of like this post.
At least a halfway decent explanation that I can get a handle on. Could be a temporary thing in word choice. Given time, maybe this discussion will end up moot…because everyone will end up saying…What the hell are we still using this antiquated old racist word for anyway?"
It’s all whitey’s fault then?
I don’t see racism truly dying until this kind of thinking dies out. I’m not sure it’s logical or helpful to base the current rules of society on what happened in the past. The very fact that we distinguish between what black people are allowed to do and what white people are allowed to do continues the idea that races are somehow separate, with different rights and rules that apply to them. The idea that any group can use a word that no one else can smacks of a weird mix of elitism and insecurity to me, and places far too much emphasis on “us” and “them”.
You’ve got cause and effect reversed, Bozuit. When being white no longer confers automatic advantages, when whites themselves give up the definition of whiteness, when the effect of racism no longer affect people, that’s when collateral things like this will no longer matter.
As others have said above, the fading of the social, economic, and political disadvantages of being Catholic or Polish are what took the sting out of words like “papist” and “Polack,” not the other way around. Even then as an outsider, using these words in certain contexts can land you in the soup.
All people will always have to be careful about using a group label that the group considers suspect. And members if that group will always have their own special dispensation among themselves.
That will always be true and it will never go away, whether we’re talking race-defined groups or something else.
That’s pretty much inarguable. It is. The legacy has to be dealt with, same as Germany.
Humanity defines itself in terms of us and them, not just in terms of race but about everything. It always has and it always will. The goal should not be to change human nature, as that’s impossible. The goal is a society that recognizes this and puts laws in place to get people to behave themselves. We will never have a world where absolutely no one hates the inter-racial same-sex couple with the blended family of adopted kids from 3rd-world nations. We can have a world where those people can’t legally burn a cross on their lawn.
Somewhat related… At least in the power of words and context.
One of the gas stations I worked in in the very early 60’s was an Imperial Oil station in the black section of town. I’d quit my 75 cent an hour job in a better part of town because Imperial paid a whole whopping $1 an hour.
The only problem was the only opening was the graveyard shift. 10 at night to 6 in the morning. And Imperial had 100’s of pieces of cheap kitschy stuff outside on permanent display in hopes that some dumb tourist might actually buy any of that cheap overpriced crap. (Nobody ever did that I noticed)
But whoever was on duty was responsible for all that stuff and anything missing at the end of a shift came out of your pay, at list price. So pretty much if anything got stolen, you worked for nothing or at a loss.
OK … Back to the power of words.
Back then black people always referred to white men as SIR. Whites NEVER referred to black men as SIR. It just wasn’t done. Sir was a word reserved for whites to be used by white people , if they chose to, for other white men, but no choice for black people in reference to white men. No other choice for blacks …(maybe Massa, but that had gotten dated by quite a few years.)
So I had a problem. I didn’t want to get robbed or worse. I was beginning to wonder if the extra 25 cents an hour was worth all the hassle. I just wanted to survive my teen age years with a little money in my pocket.
At that age I didn’t say SIR to anybody. I was a bratty little nonconformist shit. But I decided to make a change due to the circumstances.
I said YES SIR to every customer (every customer was black). Can I wipe your windshield SIR. Can I check your oil SIR. And most of these guys getting gas at 3 in the morning were real mean looking guys. Most were a little surprised to hear a skinny young white kid call them SIR, but they didn’t seem displeased. Never was robbed of anything. Nothing really strange happened. Was just a pretty boring job.
I worked there for a month, when my old boss offered me my old job back at $1 an hour. That worked for me and I quit Imperial Oil.
Two weeks after I left my replacement at that job was found tied to a tree, died of knife wounds.
He should have said SIR.
Fortunately for the OP, Chris Rock has already created one. NSFW language.
It’s entirely arguable. As non-blacks being unable to use the word “nigger” is not an inevitable consequence of anti-black racism, it’s only our own values that decide whose fault it is. If you don’t believe the actions of past generations need to decide what current future generations can do, you can argue about it an awful lot.
I also happen to disagree on the matter of Germany. Germans have nothing to apologize for and owe nothing to the world. Laws against holocaust-denial etc. are ridiculous and reactionary. In fact, the Germany example is just more hypocrisy. Who believes Italy, Austria, Japan etc. have any “legacy” to deal with? Both Germany and Japan have become very successful countries, and that’s not through endless guilty and apologizing, it’s through countries like the USA being practical and leaving the past in the past.
What’s your point? That we should accept that we’re all going to be a bit racist and just try to hide it in ourselves and others?
Do you think it would be better if no one could burn crosses on lawns, or if one race only is allowed to do it as some kind of apology for the past? What if burning crosses meant nothing of any significance because people just stopped making such a fuss over all the inferences they draw from it, and so nobody cared at all? What if a burning cross were just a burning cross?
The causes and effects are linked. Effects can be causes also.
What is all this about whites and the “definition of whiteness”? I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about with regard to the present.
Perhaps these supposed “automatic advantages” would disappear if we stopped making such a big deal about race in the first place.
You can argue it was whites that gave the word “nigger” its power in the first place, but the ones that permit it to remain powerful are those who mindlessly react to, and continue to give huge meaning to, a certain combination of two syllables or six letters. It’s just ridiculous.
Think of it in Jeff Foxworthy terms:
If it pisses you off that black people can say “nigger” and you can’t…you might be a racist.
So racism will go away only when the victims of racism stop pointing out that they are suffering from its effects. Once we all just pretend that racism doesn’t exist, especially by making white people feel like they might have to pause and think before acting or speaking, …
How convenient for the people who benefit from racism.
I don’t suppose that this argument rings any bells, something similar to “If you only stopped riling up our docile negros, everything would be okay.”
Because they took the word back and made it an endearment among themselves, why does it bother you? Are you a poor oppressed white guy?
We also would have accepted: “Fuck me harder, nigger!”
The notion that, if we just let white people use the word “nigger” then we could cure racism is pretty silly. It is true that, in the future, when white people can use the word nigger and nobody bats an eye, it will either be evidence that racism is officially over, or that we finally had that massive race war and white people won.