[QUOTE=Mayo Speaks!]
Could someone explain the difference between “deaf” and “Deaf”? It’s hard to google that.
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Basically, “deaf” refers to people who are hearing-impaired, for whatever reason. On the other hand, “Deaf” refers to members of Deaf culture, which refuses to consider deafness a disability and seems to me to have a seriously large chip on its shoulder. All Deaf people are deaf, but not all deaf people are Deaf.
[QUOTE=lissener]
Presumably, being in college, it comes naturally for these students to write the above thought as “I’m going to see a movie.” So, I’m not sure how much credence I give to this idea of such a vastly different cultural mindset.
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Shrug. I never claimed to be an authority on deaf culture - just repeating what someone told me twenty years ago. It makes sense to me - ASL being their primary language and written language being the ‘secondary’ language - that their culture would be based on ASL, not written english. YMMV.
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Except for the fact that the outgoing president, I. Jordan King didn’t grow up speaking ASL, either-he only became deaf after a motorcycle accident when he was 21.
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After reading the article Ripper linked, I no longer believe this is the source of their issues with Fernandes - it’s simply that she is divisive and a poor administrator. The faculty apparently agrees.
[QUOTE=Leviosaurus]
After reading the article Ripper linked, I no longer believe this is the source of their issues with Fernandes - it’s simply that she is divisive and a poor administrator. The faculty apparently agrees.
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Except, none of them have explained how. No examples, or anything.
Another problem with their “peaceful” protests-by blocking doors and such, especially with chains, surely they’re violating some major fire and safety codes?
I know that this does not give any insight as to why they would protest a deaf president, but maybe it can shed a little bit of light as to why they were against a hearing president before.
This is written by a deaf person in the book For Hearing People Only: “Deaf citizens rightfully resent hearing people’s learning ASL so they can take over agencies serving Deaf people–in other words, take Deaf people’s jobs away while increasing their own power in the Deaf community. We feel that there is no shortage of qualified Deaf candidates for such jobs, and that since hearing people have an unlimited choice of jobs elsewhere, our preference is for Deaf people themselves to coordinate the agencies that serve their own community. That’s hardly a snobbish or chauvinistic attitude. Deaf people, after all, are still barred from many positions.”
I can see their point because there are many jobs that they will never be able to work and when a hearing person takes over a job in ‘their community’ that could be very easily filled by a Deaf person that is one less job for them. Again, not any more insight on why they would protest now, but atleast a little insight to past protests.
Hmm. How do they feel about hearing people learning ASL so they can broaden their options for communicating with their deaf family members and friends, and their deaf family members’ deaf friends?
I guess I should feel pretty lucky that kaylasmom is such a good sport about my having learned Braille.
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99]
Hmm. How do they feel about hearing people learning ASL so they can broaden their options for communicating with their deaf family members and friends, and their deaf family members’ deaf friends?
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Like I said, there’s a pretty massive chip on their shoulders.
Most enjoy hearing people learning sign language as long as it is not to gain status and take jobs in the Deaf community. I have been in many situations where I, as a hearing person, have been in the Deaf community. Most will take great intereest on where you learned sign, why you learned sign, and who taught you sign, but once someone starts stepping on their toes and taking ‘their jobs’ is when they get upset about it. Also, the people who know how to sign ILY (I love you), and how to sign the alphabet, and think that they can hold a converstation in sign make some Deaf people a little on the upset sign. Imagine having to spell out every converstation you were trying to have with someone!
Right dead on! This might be a little about how Fernandes is not Deaf enough. I do know that there are some Deafie students who are really “Deafer then thou/ Deaf Seperatist” However, not all people on that campus are like that. There are many people on that campus who aren’t Deaf seperatist. The culture has gotten a LOT better in terms of acceptance. I hang out at a Deaf culture messageboard http://www.alldeaf.com, and trust me…it is VERY accepting. Right Levosaur? (we know each other from somewhere ;)) Lots more people are getting CIs, hearing parents are encouraged to equipt their kids with both Sign skills and speech skills, and so on. Even hoh (hard of hearing) people are pretty much accepted! I myself am hoh. I Sign fluently. Nobody’s ever attacked me b/c I can hear and talk somewhat. Matter of fact, the only people who aren’t accepted in Deaf culture are those high and mighty kids who are typical AG Beller types. Like they think they are all that and a bag of chips b/c they have oral skills, and they don’t have to depend on the “crutch” of Sign!
I am also on a couple of Dhh related listservs, and I actually KNOW people who are professors at Gally. This has been BIG news. Trust me…the media is not accuratly portraying this. It’s b/c she’s pretty much a horrible administrator. One of my friends sent her son to the Deaf elementary school that is affliated with Gally. Fernandes took over the administration of the Deaf school, and from what I remember, it got so bad that Jaime took her son out of school there.
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
Except, none of them have explained how. No examples, or anything.
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You mean “No examples quoted in any of the articles so far linked,” right?
I thought this one was pretty interesting: Lamar Thorpe, the student body president of George Washington University has expressed his support (after the Student Body President of U Maryland sent him a letter urging him to lend his support): http://www.dailycolonial.com/go.dc?p=3&s=3198
Welcome to the Straight Dope SkiDemon! Nice to have someone a mite closer to the situation chime in. Well, I’ve never been to a Deaf Culture messageboard that I know of, but I’m willing to believe they’re accepting.
[QUOTE=SkiDemon]
Right Levosaur? (we know each other from somewhere ;))
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Seriously? My email’s in my profile - drop me a line.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
There is a difference between being deaf and being Deaf. Apparently (I read this in TIME or Newsweek-one of them had an article) there are even some member of the Deaf community who are outraged when parents of newborns opt for cochlear implants for their deaf infants. They take this personally as an affront and a loss to the Deaf community.
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As hearing parents of a deaf child with CIs (cochlear implants), I can verify that this bitterness towards CIs is very real.
Someone in this thread said that the more militant Deaf people don’t view themselves as hearing-impaired so much as viewing the rest of the world as deaf-impaired. You hit the nail on the head, there. They’re proud of how far deaf people have come in society, and largely consider inability to hear as a lifestyle choice, but the people who think this way are deluding themselves. Sorry, but by definition, a loss of functionality in a part of the body, especially one of the five main senses, is a handicap.
The Deaf community view CIs as a premeditated, technological means to destroy their culture, somewhat akin to ethnic cleansing. When my little girl was diagnosed at birth as being profoundly and bilaterally deaf, I started a blog on the matter, and I received quite a bit of angry email because of it. (I also received a lot of supporting emails, too from people of all hearing ranges including deaf people - the only hate mail was from members of the Deaf community.)
I can also attest to the entitlement attitude. Many (if not most) members of the Deaf community are accustomed to daily governmental assistance, in the form of interpreters, tuition scholarships, job placement, and in some cases rent. All for people who, aside from their inability to hear as well as others, are healthy and fit and otherwise capable of taking care of themselves. I can see why they consider capital-D Deafness to be a lifestyle choice instead of a handicap.
On the other hand, my wife and I are doing everything we can to ensure that our daughter will take care of herself with little or no support. We were very fortunate to have gotten her CIs before her first birthday, to maximize her early age language development. We’re taking full advantage of state-funded therapy to improve her language development, to have her in a mainstream classroom by kindergarden. We can give her self-sufficiency by working on this issue early. She’s 3 years old, her hearing age is 2, but her receptive skills are are those of a 4 year old and her expressive skills are only half a year behind her actual age. She won’t need an interpreter following her everywhere she goes, she won’t have to rely on the state for her adult life.
I’m kind of rambling here. Clearly, this is stuff I intended for another post, but I think it still fits here.
I’m not a member of the capital-D Deaf community, but I am a member of the lowercase-d deaf community. The primary distinction I see between the two is that the Deaf group have chosen to allow others to pay their way, they have a worldview which artificially inflates their societal benefit (especially given their isolation from the rest of society), and they panic when something threatens that worldview. The deaf group, on the other hand, tend to be more pragmatic, having chosen to live in the world of the hearing.
Gallaudet is supposed to cater to both the Deaf and the deaf. But the Deaf, having much more to lose, ironically have the loudest voice. Personally, I suspect they’re the minority in the matter.
[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Why in hell would a “good sound or better sound” conference be booked at such a school? Kind of in their face, no?
As to this controversy–I confess I don’t get it. There is a difference between being deaf and being Deaf. Apparently (I read this in TIME or Newsweek-one of them had an article) there are even some member of the Deaf community who are outraged when parents of newborns opt for cochlear implants for their deaf infants. They take this personally as an affront and a loss to the Deaf community.<shrugs>
I think that like a lot of communities, there are extremes–and right now it would seem that the most militant have the floor.
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If there was a pre-natal drug that you could take to ensure that your children are straight. How pleased do you think the gay community would be?
[QUOTE=Mr. Excellent]
I dropped by the Gallaudet protest when it was still just a lock-down of their main academic building. I’m not deaf, but I’d heard from NPR that there were allegations of excessive force by the security people trying to break it up, so I thought I’d go see what was going on. (Man, I love living in this city.)
I can’t speak to the merits of the students’ gripe, but a friend and I were let inside to look around. A few observations:
1.) These kids were organized. Keeping in touch via sidekicks, people on all the doors, and a well-equiped media/PR center set up near one of the doors. I was impressed.
2.) Everyone I spoke to (or wrote notes to) seemed very nice, and not at all like an entitled asshole. Certainly, no one gave my friend or I a hard time because we weren’t deaf - a lot of people thanked us for dropping by.
3.) Most of the people I conversed with said that the issue wasn’t so much a deaf/not Deaf issue, but irritation at the perceived lack of student input into the Presidential selection process. They claimed to want more of a chance to weigh in.
A little bit of a hijack - sorry. But I’d be glad to answer any questions about the bit of the protest that I saw.
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The impression I got from the news is that Fernandes was hated with a passion and the students let the board know BEFORE she was picked but they went ahead and picked her anyway. She has a reputation for being really divisive and an utter bitch who is very adept and sucking up to the right people. There were at least twop administrators who would have received overwhleming approval from the students but didn’t receive a whole lot of consideration because Fernandes had some powerful advocates on the board.
The entire history of deafness seems a bit wierd to me but I ge the impression Gallaudet students do not want to treat deafness as a disability more like differently abled. Apparently, Fernandes’ history and attitude is not consistent with this philosophy.
[QUOTE=Operation Ripper]
Good christ, and we as tax payers are paying for this shit. Assholes!
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That’s right. Those deaf pricks should be grateful for any charity we decide to shower on them. They should just STFU and just say thank you or leave, noone stopping them from just leaving, its take it or leave it after all.
Frankly, I wish students protested more these days.
[QUOTE=Blue Willow Plate]
Good? Bad? Who knows. I guess I figure the people paying tuition are the ones who should decide who’s in charge.
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Christ, no! You want to put the students in charge of the school? Dude, if my classmates had been in charge of my college, the place would have exploded within hours of us getting there! Barcelona would be a new bay, instead of a thriving city… sheesh… what are some people thinking!
I read that more than 80 percent of the faculty voted not only in opposition to the appointment of Fernandes as president, but for dismissal from her post as provost as well, for being difficult to work with. If you have pissed off that many people at an institution, it seems to me that the board were idiots not only for considering her for the post of president, but for holding out for so long.
Why do people believe that the fact that overwhelmingly the faculty and student body do not want this person as president should be ignored or taken as a sign that they are whiny assholes?
Until the U.S. allows naturalized citizens to run for president, I think we’re being pretty hypocritical criticizing the Gaulladet kids. ASL isn’t just signed English. It’s a completely separate language with its own culture - like French or Spanish. So people who didn’t learn the language until they were adults are like people who learn a second language in adulthood. They always have an “accent” and they’re always of another culture.
That’s where a lot of the drama over CI’s comes from - the Deaf think that kids should learn to be native ASL speakers and come into that culture, rather than being pushed to learn English where they will always struggle. Kids can end up becoming crippled and inept in two languages that way. At the very least until CI’s become higher quality, I tend to agree that the main focus of education for a deaf child should be integration into ASL.
As for taxes. What bullshit. Deaf people pay taxes too you know, and have a right to an education. How many billions of dollars go to federally subsidized education for the hearing? And why the hell aren’t the hearing protesting more? Where are the sit-ins and administration take-overs? Hearing kids are obviously apathetic self-centered freeloaders, probably surfing porn and playing World of Warcraft all day. They just aren’t cutting it, and I think we should cut funding until they pull their weight.
The following is just my opinion based on my own experiences, and is not meant to paint anyone with a broad brush.
My oldest sister is Deaf and deaf - but not militant about it, we have mellowed her over the years.
When she was a teenager (and naturally rebellious) she decided she didn’t want to wear her hearing aids anymore. She said that is was trying to be hearing and that the rest of the world should try to get long with her, instead of the other way around.
The sad part is that her speech used to be pretty clear, but has worsened since then. She wants to get hearing aids again, but will need to save up.
She attended Gallaudet for 1 year. It was not a good experience. The Deaf community in our city is pretty insulated and is quite chauvinistic in its attitude, out there it is even worse (or it was, when she was there). Many of the Deaf men were allowed to be completely inappropriate because there were few “good” Deaf men.
Many of the Deaf people I have met seem to have a real sense of entitlement, but how does that differ from most people’s attitudes (especially a lot of minorities)? Anytime that a certain group is given a lot of advantages (free tuition etc) in an attempt to “make up” for something (either a disability or a former injustice) it often is to their detriment. There are exceptions, but most of her friends and Deaf community are underachievers, despite free tuition.
My sister is capable of a lot, but because a lot of “help” was given she can’t seem to do a lot on her own. She has a very low opinion of herself (as do a lot of people, particularly women in her community).
[QUOTE=uglybeech]
That’s where a lot of the drama over CI’s comes from - the Deaf think that kids should learn to be native ASL speakers and come into that culture, rather than being pushed to learn English where they will always struggle. Kids can end up becoming crippled and inept in two languages that way. At the very least until CI’s become higher quality, I tend to agree that the main focus of education for a deaf child should be integration into ASL.
[/QUOTE]
I think that ASL is a beautiful and elegantly language, both simple in execution and complex in expression. But in changing the grammar from the original English, ASL has become a different dialect, one which has no practical written version. For all written correspondence, an ASL speaker MUST use English. Which language should he learn first? The one the parents speak, right?
And so…guess which language tends to get put off until much much later in life?
This language, so at odds with the language spoken nearly everywhere else in the U.S., is the official language of Gallaudet.
In my opinion, the Deaf community likes to promote ASL and the end-all, be-all method of communication, to the detriment of their education. This has certainly been true for ALL native ASL signers I have met. Conversely, signers I’ve met who have used a sign language more aligned with English tend to do better in school. Why? One supposes it’s because they don’t exercise a willing ignorance of the world around them.
Yep. I happily accepted every state-subsidized penny that went into my education. Except I got bupkus. No special scholarships. No paid tuition. No room and board. No subsidized parking. No interpreter to carry my books. Zippo.
nitpick As I understand it, ASL didn’t evolve from signed English - in fact, it evolved largely from Old French Sign Language. And it could scarcely be described as a dialect of English - hell, by any stretch of the linguistic imagination, ASL and English are in completely different phyla as regards structure, etc.
But you’re right to say there’s no current, widespread written version, although there have been a few proposals.