Okay, fine, Islam is this violent, evil religion. What do you want us to DO about it?

[Hank_Beecher]

@Ramira

No, in fact you give me a website… woooah. I am so impressed you googled around to one of the many websites asserting the proper way to do something. Why that Verily shows Consensus…

There is no “consensus” as the actual images of actual hidjabs in the real world.

But it is typical of the othering hate mongerers to promote such ideas in their attempt to promote the intracommunal hatreds and promote their underlying agendas.

This is a typical straw man of yours. of course you do not know anything of how I was raised (in fact secular and quite indifferent to the religion).

However, interacting with the hate mongers and the bigots has taught me an appreciation of the importance of refutation of the bile and the lies and the distortions promoted by the bigotted hate mongerers, as their discourse replicates again and again the same pattern of discourse, the same tropes as led to the Final solution…

Indeed the more I see of your type of discourse and the more I see of the robertnumbers discourse, the more I feel sympathy for the very religious and the burden they bear and the less sympathetic I feel to criticisms that I see more and more as mere excuses to cover bigotries.

I have also learned an appreciation for the desire of the jews for the Israel, and their distrust of the christian european powers since we see the transfer of the same kind of discourse to a new minority religion. The intolerance and the hatred is in the same structure.

You are continuously falsely equating criticism of ideas with bigotry towards people, and still failing to addressthe points about how hijab is harmful to Muslim women, preferring instead to resort to childish name-calling.

[Hank_Beecher]

@A_isha

I like how you’re arguing with an actual Muslima showing you images of other actual Muslimas wearing a wide array of different hijabs that they’re all wrong about hijab not having any agreed-upon single definition.

Nothing has a ‘single agreed upon definition’, yet people are still able to converse.

I was correcting the falsehood stated in this thread that hijab is ‘just a headscarf’ because I know enough to know that this is not true. The question is, do you?

[Ramira]

@Hank_Beecher

You are continuously falsely equating criticism of ideas with bigotry towards people,

No, when I see distortive responses, and playing games like claiming consensus on a quickly googled, it is clear enough for me.

[qutoe] and still failing to addressthe points about how hijab is harmful to Muslim women
[/quote]

you are joking…

I do not need a reddit to tell me about my own life and religion or that of my cousins and my sisters etc.

[Hank_Beecher]

@tomndebb

This thread is based on the premise that Islam is evil and violent. For the purpose of this thread, it is a given.
Repeating that claim, over and over, does nothing to address the actual topic of the thread while standing as an open invitation for other posters to attempt to refute the claims, hijacking the thread.

There is still another thread open on the first page of GD where such assertions are allowed and one is always able to open a new thread to hammer the point home. The ban on that particular assertion/discussion in this thread only is intended to keep the thread on track. This was pointed out when the Mod note was laid down forbidding the continuation of that hijack.

[ /Moderating ]

This post is exemplary of the blatant double standard on the SDMB when it comes to criticism of Islam. The thread is filled to the brim with defense of Islamic scripture, orthodoxy, and tradition, as well as a constant stream of accusations impugning the motives of those who would dare voice that criticism. Yet, only the elaboration of the atrocities of Islam’s prophet is the subject of moderation.

[Robert163]

@A_isha

True. But Robert163 wasn’t talking about Muslims who favor the death penalty for apostasy, he was aghast at the very idea that Muslims think favorably about their religion’s influence on their countries’ politics (according to him, for example, 95% of Indonesians are happy with the influence of Islam on Indonesia’s politics, but the number of Indonesians who say they favor the death penalty for apostasy is only 18% even among those who want to see shari’ah made the the law of the land).

Meaning that what Robert163 thinks is so damning for Islam is the exact same thing that most Christians in the US also say they want.

Well, since the Pew Poll has like 15 or maybe even 20 different factors, Robert163 could of picked any number of indicators.

I was looking for a factor that was as general as possible, because any narrowly defined factor will be rejected as an “outlier”.

[A_isha]

@Hank_Beecher

And why is it, do you think, that a Muslim woman critical of hijab might feel less comfortable publicly expressing her opinion than those supporting the tradition?

That would depend on the Muslima in question. I’m sure some are afraid to criticise it when they’d like to, while others are a lot more open and vocal in their criticism of hijab and don’t even wear it despite being Muslim (such as Mona Eltahawy).

I find it odd that a Muslima “afraid to criticise hijab” would register on Reddit and post a lengthy complaint in the exmuslim subreddit, though.

@Hank_Beecher

Nothing has a ‘single agreed upon definition’, yet people are still able to converse.

You’re the one who disagreed with Ramira pointing out that there was no single definition by pointing to the “consensus” as described on some random Hajj travel advice website.

I was correcting the falsehood stated in this thread that hijab is ‘just a headscarf’ because I know enough to know that this is not true. The question is, do you?

It can indeed be “just a headscarf”, or a more covering garment, or everything in between, depending on the who, when, and where.

[andros]

@Hank_Beecher

This post is exemplary of the blatant double standard on the SDMB when it comes to criticism of Islam. The thread is filled to the brim with defense of Islamic scripture, orthodoxy, and tradition, as well as a constant stream of accusations impugning the motives of those who would dare voice that criticism. Yet, only the elaboration of the atrocities of Islam’s prophet is the subject of moderation.

I suppose we see what we choose to see. There are plenty of threads in which to discuss the “atrocities of Islam’s prophet.”

In this thread, can you provide any support for the notion that discussing those “atrocities” will lead to ending or reducing the influence of a (stipulated for the argument) inherently evil religion?

[Robert163]

@andros

I suppose we see what we choose to see. There are plenty of threads in which to discuss the “atrocities of Islam’s prophet.”

In this thread, can you provide any support for the notion that discussing those “atrocities” will lead to ending or reducing the influence of a (stipulated for the argument) inherently evil religion?

Isn’t discussing the cause going to be an integral part of finding the solution.

[andros]

@Robert163

Isn’t discussing the cause going to be an integral part of finding the solution.

If we accept, as some claim, that Islam is inherently violent and evil, what do you propose be done to address it?

[Robert163]

@andros

If we accept, as some claim, that Islam is inherently violent and evil, what do you propose be done to address it?

For people who are going to defend it no matter what is said: you can’t do anything

For marginal people who might be convinced that it is evil: detail precisely what made/makes it evil

[Robert163]

@andros

If we accept, as some claim, that Islam is inherently violent and evil, what do you propose be done to address it?

We are playing a rigged game here, with the defenders.

If I make the claim that Islam is oppressive to women, I will be accused of bigotry, hatred and ignorance.

If I cite the prevalent use of the Hijab, I will be given a lecture on the fact that it is just a piece of clothing and I am ignorant.

If I cite that a woman is to be modest and that a man is a degree above a woman, I will be accused of “cherry picking” to support my ignornat, hateful view of Islam.

If I cite that polygamy has social/economic factors that are detrimental to women, I will be informed that I am ignornat and trying to impose western standards on the rest of the world.

So I guess you question is very relevant. Exactly what is one supposed to do???

[Hank_Beecher]

@A_isha

That would depend on the Muslima in question. I’m sure some are afraid to criticise it when they’d like to, while others are a lot more open and vocal in their criticism of hijab and don’t even wear it despite being Muslim (such as Mona Eltahawy).

I find it odd that a Muslima “afraid to criticise hijab” would register on Reddit and post a lengthy complaint in the exmuslim subreddit, though.

Ex-muslims have formed a community on Reddit in order to support each other in their recovery. Many come fromfamilies, communities, and countries where expressing such dissent is very very dangerous, and so they use the anonymous nature of the site for their own protection.

You’re the one who disagreed with Ramira pointing out that there was no single definition by pointing to the “consensus” as described on some random Hajj travel advice website.

I was using consensus as it is defined here, meaning a general agreement, or majority of opinion, not implying a total consensus.

It can indeed be “just a headscarf”, or a more covering garment, or everything in between, depending on the who, when, and where.

The fact that it can have all those different meanings nicely illustrates my point that it is not “just a headscarf”. It is very often much more.

[Hank_Beecher]

@A_isha

And yet, not only do Muslims both nowadays and back the still consider him to be a Muslim, al-Khawarizmi was able to publish the above right in the capital of the Abbasid Caliphate, and yet still managed to stay not just alive, but a scholar at the Bayt al-Hikma until his death 30 years later, at the age of 70.

That a tolerance of those critical of religious scripture and tradition is a prerequisite for an atmosphere conducive to scientific inquiry, and advancement of knowledge. And that the Muslim world has never recovered from what the Mongols did to Baghdad.

[Hank_Beecher]

@andros

If we accept, as some claim, that Islam is inherently violent and evil, what do you propose be done to address it?

My answer from post #89:

@Hank_Beecher

There aren’t any easy answers, of course.

Are you aware of the work of The Quilliam Foundation?

[QUOTE=Quilliam]
Quilliam is the world’s first counter-extremism think tank set up to address the unique challenges of citizenship, identity, and belonging in a globalised world. Quilliam stands for religious freedom, equality, human rights and democracy.

Challenging extremism is the duty of all responsible members of society. Not least because cultural insularity and extremism are products of the failures of wider society to foster a shared sense of belonging and to advance liberal democratic values. With Islamist extremism in particular, we believe a more self-critical approach must be adopted by Muslims. Westophobic ideological influences and social insularity needs to be challenged within Muslim communities by Muslims themselves whilst simultaneously, an active drive towards creating an inclusive civic identity must be pursued by all members of society.

Quilliam seeks to challenge what we think, and the way we think. It aims to generate creative, informed and inclusive discussions to counter the ideological underpinnings of terrorism, whilst simultaneously
providing evidence-based recommendations to governments for related policy measures.

One thing that can be done is to stop treating Islamists such as CAIR and MSA(PDF) as the official face of Islam when engaging in dialouge, and instead begin supporting and engaging with the secularists and reformers from within those communities. Examples include Pervez Hoodbhoy, Ali A Rizvi, and Muslims for Progressive Values.
[/QUOTE]

It is no surprise that this post was ignored, while assertions that certain posters feel they can more easily characterize as bigoted are shouted down in the hysterical manner typical of SDMB discussions concerning Islam.

[andros]

@Hank_Beecher

It is no surprise that this post was ignored

I did not ignore it, and I’m sorry you feel your voice is not being heard.

[A_isha]

@Hank_Beecher

Ex-muslims have formed a community on Reddit in order to support each other in their recovery. Many come fromfamilies, communities, and countries where expressing such dissent is very very dangerous, and so they use the anonymous nature of the site for their own protection.

Oh, right, I should have remembered all those Saudi Reddit users.

I was using consensus as it is defined here, meaning a general agreement, or majority of opinion, not implying a total consensus.

It’s not even that.

The fact that it can have all those different meanings nicely illustrates my point that it is not “just a headscarf”. It is very often much more.

What does the opinion of some random blog have to do with the fact that hijab is often “just a headscarf”?

[A_isha]

@Hank_Beecher

That a tolerance of those critical of religious scripture and tradition is a prerequisite for an atmosphere conducive to scientific inquiry, and advancement of knowledge.

Which means that, less than 200 years after Muhammad’s death, Islam was tolerant of those critical of religious scripture and tradition even in the capital of the Caliphate, which led to an atmosphere conducive to scientific inquiry, and advancement of knowledge.

And that the Muslim world has never recovered from what the Mongols did to Baghdad.

You know, I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with you before, but I actually agree with you about this.

[YogSothoth]

@John_Mace

Who, specifically, is implementing these policies?

Its a fact Obama’s been more liberal with ME countries and Muslims, from agreeing to meet with Iran and working with the former “Axis of Evil” country on a nuclear deal to not thinking we can just go in and blow everyone up in Syria and take over like Bush did with Iraq.

[Robert163]

@andros

I did not ignore it, and I’m sorry you feel your voice is not being heard.

Well, in all honesty… if some of the defenders would just admit, yes, rape murder and theft are evil and Mohammed did all of them and that was wrong… instead of all of their convoluted defense mechanisms… then, well then, the (SDMB) conversation would go A LOT different and people like me and Hank Beecher wouldn’t have to spend so much time “spewing our ignornat hatred”… we could all just move on to, how do you fix the situaiton.

[Hank_Beecher]

@A_isha

Which means that, less than 200 years after Muhammad’s death, Islam was tolerant of those critical of religious scripture and tradition even in the capital of the Caliphate, which led to an atmosphere conducive to scientific inquiry, and advancement of knowledge.

It is not that Islam was tolerant, it was that the society was relatively tolerant despite what Islam says. If you are trying to redefine Islam to include this tolerance, know that while I will disagree that it is currently included, I will be cheering for your success in your endeavor.

You know, I don’t think I’ve ever agreed with you before, but I actually agree with you about this.

As we continue our exchanges, I get the feeling that our disagreements are more about semantics and definitions than about principles.