Okay, now it's time to put antifa in the same class as racists

[elucidator]

So antifas overwhelms the peaceful white wing protesters? Because they outnumber them? So the extreme fringe of lefties outnumber the alt-Reich. Can’t call that good news, but I’ve heard worse. (Hippies had better fashion sense, we were at least more colorful.)

[mikecurtis]

@adaher

. . .But antifa isn’t made up of whole cloth, and Vox even took the trouble to write an article about how they are probably going to hurt the very cause they are fighting for:

The case against antifa - Vox
. . .

So did The Atlantic

All of this fuels the fears of Trump supporters, who suspect that liberal bastions are refusing to protect their right to free speech. . .

Antifa believes it is pursuing the opposite of authoritarianism. Many of its activists oppose the very notion of a centralized state. But in the name of protecting the vulnerable, antifascists have granted themselves the authority to decide which Americans may publicly assemble and which may not. That authority rests on no democratic foundation. Unlike the politicians they revile, the men and women of antifa cannot be voted out of office. Generally, they don’t even disclose their names.

Antifa’s perceived legitimacy is inversely correlated with the government’s. Which is why, in the Trump era, the movement is growing like never before. As the president derides and subverts liberal-democratic norms, progressives face a choice. They can recommit to the rules of fair play, and try to limit the president’s corrosive effect, though they will often fail. Or they can, in revulsion or fear or righteous rage, try to deny racists and Trump supporters their political rights. From Middlebury to Berkeley to Portland, the latter approach is on the rise, especially among young people.

Revulsion, fear, and rage are understandable. But one thing is clear. The people preventing Republicans from safely assembling on the streets of Portland may consider themselves fierce opponents of the authoritarianism growing on the American right.** In truth, however, they are its unlikeliest allies.**

my emphasis.

mc

[SteveG1]

@adaher

If there numbers are indeed in the millions then there’s a lot of people who might need to be told that they are utterly screwed.

If you’re looking at right-wingers willing to use violence vs. left-wingers willing to use violence, right now, in 2017, I’d say the numbers are close to even, and in most demonstrations the antifas have outnumbered the right-wing peaceful demonstrators. A small group of unarmed people throwing fists aren’t going to disperse a crowd larger than them. These thugs have been overwhelming relatively small, peaceful groups of right-wingers.

Looking at the 1) number of “incidents” and also looking at the 2) number of injuries and deaths directly attributable, and looking at the 3) avowed goals of each group, I’d say they are not even close. Not by a LONG shot.

There is no equivalence at all.

One group is evil. The other group is dumb (maybe).

One group has been around a long long time. The other group is a reaction against them.

Yes, other groups have committed acts of violence. And no, that should not be tolerated. But there is no moral equivalency between neo-Nazis and groups like Antifa.

Neo-Nazis are associating themselves with a group that was (and still should be) America’s enemy — responsible for the extermination of millions of innocent people. The U.S. literally fought a war against these people.

When people insist Antifa be subject to the same censure as neo-Nazis, they are failing to see the bigger picture: fighting for the right to be a fascist is not the same as fighting for the right to exist.

[madsircool]

@BlankSlate

Well yes, I’d assume they’re linked.

I love it when a poster lives up to his screen name.

[E-DUB]

You realize that if certain folks are able to get “Antifa” deemed a “terrorist organization” (Terrorist? They’re barely an organization!.) that they’ll be able to call anyone who’s against fascism a “terrorist sympathizer”. Lovely.

[asahi]

Here’s the bottom line: this country was founded not on antifa supremacy but on white supremacy. It wasn’t antifa who owned slaves, but white supremacists. It wasn’t antifa who rioted and murdered Chinese immigrants in the West and had the first anti-immigrant laws passed, but white supremacists. It wasn’t antifa who tried to secede from the Union to protect a white supremacist, slave-ownership society, but white supremacists. It wasn’t antifa who engaged in terrorism against blacks and white “carpetbaggers” to establish and maintain a white supremacist society after the Civil War, it was white supremacists. It wasn’t antifa who lynched 4000 or so blacks between 1880 and 1960, it was white supremacists. It wasn’t antifa who created Jim Crow laws and elected congressmen, governors, and even presidents to preserve an oppressive society, it was white supremacists.

Antifa has hardly any history of doing anything; they are simply unorganized ‘anarchists’ rebranded. There is no way to compare them to racists.

[Ale]

@SteveG1

Looking at the 1) number of “incidents” and also looking at the 2) number of injuries and deaths directly attributable, and looking at the 3) avowed goals of each group, I’d say they are not even close. Not by a LONG shot.

There is no equivalence at all.

One group is evil. The other group is dumb (maybe).

One group has been around a long long time. The other group is a reaction against them.

Yes, other groups have committed acts of violence. And no, that should not be tolerated. But there is no moral equivalency between neo-Nazis and groups like Antifa.

Neo-Nazis are associating themselves with a group that was (and still should be) America’s enemy — responsible for the extermination of millions of innocent people. The U.S. literally fought a war against these people.

When people insist Antifa be subject to the same censure as neo-Nazis, they are failing to see the bigger picture: fighting for the right to be a fascist is not the same as fighting for the right to exist.

Antifa goes back to the 30s and was created by the Soviet Union, who managed to kill even more millions of innocent people than the Nazis.

"The organization was initially part of the Soviet Union’s front operations to bring about communist dictatorship in Germany, and it worked to label all rival parties as “fascist.”

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Ale

Antifa goes back to the 30s and was created by the Soviet Union, who managed to kill even more millions of innocent people than the Nazis.

"The organization was initially part of the Soviet Union’s front operations to bring about communist dictatorship in Germany, and it worked to label all rival parties as “fascist.”

First, your link sucks as a cite.

Second, do you have a cite that anyone currently using the moniker “Antifa” traces their organizations roots back to the Soviet Union?

[Ale]

@Snowboarder_Bo

First, your link sucks as a cite.

Second, do you have a cite that anyone currently using the moniker “Antifa” traces their organizations roots back to the Soviet Union?

Oh, link is wrong. It was supposed to link back topost #78 or go directly to the citation here.

As for your question, do you also question whether someone how flies a Nazi flag and call himself a Nazi traces the roots of his ideology back to Nazi Germany? :rolleyes:

[Chimera]

Your cite is to The Epoch Times?

Holy fuck, dude. Get real.

[Dale_Sams]

You all recognize Antifa (or at least Black Bloc) and disavow (not necessary, only crazy pundits try and justify that shit)…i feel like Jon Snow after people finally believe him about the white (ha!) walkers.

My work here is done. You all are good people (no sarcasm)

Oooops. I should have quit when i was ahead. I will quibble with Antifa not being ‘evil’. Equiv of Neo-Nazis no certainly not, but i see a lot of evil.

[elucidator]

Its a shame, really, that some fanatical white supremacists spoil any chance of a fair hearing for white nationalists.

[adaher]

Antifa Organizers Announce Plans To Disrupt Neo-Nazi Rally Or Whatever Else...

Antifa Organizers Announce Plans To Disrupt Neo-Nazi Rally Or Whatever Else Going On That Day

[adaher]

Pelosi says what needs to be said:

http://www.democraticleader.gov/newsroom/82917/

These people need to be arrested and tried. Last I checked, speech, no matter how odious, wasn’t illegal. Beating people up is, however.

[iiandyiiii]

@adaher

Pelosi says what needs to be said:

http://www.democraticleader.gov/newsroom/82917/

These people need to be arrested and tried. Last I checked, speech, no matter how odious, wasn’t illegal. Beating people up is, however.

Sounds fine to me – that tiny minority of liberal/left/progressive protesters that initiate violence on non-violent people should be prosecuted. Most “antifa” people don’t initiate violence on non-violent people, as far as I can tell, and should not be compared in any way whatsoever to white supremacists.

[andrewm]

@adaher

Antifa Organizers Announce Plans To Disrupt Neo-Nazi Rally Or Whatever Else Going On That Day

Antifa Organizers Announce Plans To Disrupt Neo-Nazi Rally Or Whatever Else Going On That Day

The Onion is 100% made-up satire. What are you trying to prove by linking to that?

[Gyrate]

@adaher

THey make that more likely if it comes down to who has the best street thugs. Last time lefties duked it out in the streets with gangs of fascists it went badly for them.

Which “last time” are you referring to? Charlottesville or some earlier event? Lefties have fought with fascists in the streets numerous times over the decades, and have won (for a given value of “won”) on several occasions.

@SteveG1

Looking at the 1) number of “incidents” and also looking at the 2) number of injuries and deaths directly attributable, and looking at the 3) avowed goals of each group, I’d say they are not even close. Not by a LONG shot.

There is no equivalence at all.

One group is evil. The other group is dumb (maybe).

One group has been around a long long time. The other group is a reaction against them.

One group, left alone, would continue to work to intimidate, persecute and in extreme circumstances kill innocent people. The other group, left alone, would sit at home binge-watching Game of Thrones.

Yes, other groups have committed acts of violence. And no, that should not be tolerated.

Agreed.

But there is no moral equivalency between neo-Nazis and groups like Antifa.

Neo-Nazis are associating themselves with a group that was (and still should be) America’s enemy — responsible for the extermination of millions of innocent people. The U.S. literally fought a war against these people.

When people insist Antifa be subject to the same censure as neo-Nazis, they are failing to see the bigger picture: fighting for the right to be a fascist is not the same as fighting for the right to exist.

And also agreed.

[adaher]

@iiandyiiii

Sounds fine to me – that tiny minority of liberal/left/progressive protesters that initiate violence on non-violent people should be prosecuted. Most “antifa” people don’t initiate violence on non-violent people, as far as I can tell, and should not be compared in any way whatsoever to white supremacists.

The ones who get violent absolutely are comparable. Intimidation and violence in pursuit of political objectives is worse than ideas, no matter how odious the ideas. Peaceful white supremacists are better people than violent civil rights activists.

[iiandyiiii]

@adaher

The ones who get violent absolutely are comparable. Intimidation and violence in pursuit of political objectives is worse than ideas, no matter how odious the ideas. Peaceful white supremacists are better people than violent civil rights activists.

Morally, I totally disagree. Advocating white supremacism is far, far more harmful and damaging to society than punching white supremacists. That’s an incredibly easy moral judgment, in my view. The worst thing, morally, about punching white supremacists is the possibility that it helps white supremacists by increasing the likelihood of sympathy with their position.

That doesn’t mean I think it should be legal to do the latter, or illegal to do the former – quite the contrary. But morality and the law do not always align, nor should they.

[Kimstu]

@adaher

Peaceful white supremacists are better people than violent civil rights activists.

Uh, no. Peaceful white supremacists are (for the moment) more law-abiding than violent civil rights activists, and should definitely be physically and legally protected against violent civil rights activists. But it is not justified to assume that they are necessarily better people.