Okay... Now Let's Talk about Orthodox Fasting

[Anne_Neville]

@TruCelt

Hijack: what do you call the leap months? And where do they get inserted?

The leap month is named Adar II (Adar is a regular month, that generally happens in February-March), and is inserted after the regular month of Adar. When we do that, as we will do in 2011, there’s Adar I and Adar II. Passover generally falls late when we have a leap year, since Passover is in Nissan, the month after Adar or Adar II.

Jewish years go in a 19-year cycle. We insert an extra Adar into years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19 of the cycle. Year 19 is a year evenly divisible by 19 (the year number is the Jewish year number, not the regular year number) The current Jewish year is 5771, which is year 14 in the cycle. The Jewish year starts at Rosh Hashanah, so we just started a new one.

We also vary the lengths of some months, a la the Gregorian calendar’s method of doing leap years. But that’s mostly to keep holidays falling on the right days of the week. The calendar is set up so that Yom Kippur can’t fall on Friday or Sunday, because if it fell on Friday, you’d have trouble preparing for Shabbat on Saturday, and if it fell on Sunday, you’d have trouble preparing for Yom Kippur on Shabbat. There’s also a restriction that Hoshanah Rabbah can’t fall on Shabbat. Hoshanah Rabbah is a holiday that was a much bigger deal when they were setting up the calculated calendar than it is for most Jews now.

In practice, most of us buy a Jewish calendar, or Google for when the holidays are. I have a book that has the dates of all the holidays from 1900 to 2100.

[Anne_Neville]

I should mention that all Jewish holidays are on a specific date of the Jewish calendar. The one exception is that fasts other than Yom Kippur get postponed to Sunday if they fall on Shabbat. We don’t have any holidays that are constrained to a specific day of the week the way Easter or Thanksgiving are. Rosh Hashanah is always on the first of the month of Tishri, Hanukkah is always on the 25th of Kislev, Passover is always on the 15th of Nissan, and so on.

[Alessan]

Note also that the Hebrew calender is a lunar cycle, which means you can know the phase of the moon by looking at the date. 1st of the month: new moon; 15th: full.

[cmkeller]

Anne Neville:

The one exception is that fasts other than Yom Kippur get postponed to Sunday if they fall on Shabbat.

Nitpick: and Taanis Esther, which gets bumped back to the prior Thursday if it were to fall on Shabbat.

[Anne_Neville]

@Alessan

Note also that the Hebrew calender is a lunar cycle, which means you can know the phase of the moon by looking at the date. 1st of the month: new moon; 15th: full.

New moon is a crescent, not astronomical new moon. Also, note that the calendar does not depend on somebody sighting a crescent moon. It used to, but it hasn’t for centuries.

There are Hebrew calendar converters online, of course. You type in a date in the Hebrew or Gregorian calendar, and it calculates the date in the other calendar.

[rocking_chair]

there are 2 calendars at work in the orthodox church, julian which is 13 days behind, and revised julian where the fixed holy days are in with gregorian dates the movable dates ie pascha are calculated on julian calendar.

churches that are on revised julian will have christmas on the december 25th most of the world is on. churches on julian will have christmas on the december 25th that falls on january 7th for most of the world.

the fast this most affects is the ss p&p/apostles fast where revised julian churches will have a shorter fast if pascha is on a late april/early may date.

to cross threads, revised julian’s nativity fast is early enough that thanksgiving is in it. here in the states the bishops that are over churches that are on revised julian usually will send out a letter to be read in church that on that thurday one should follow the countries thanksgiving feast, and eat the turkey dinner that someone has prepared. for that day only! find a non-orthodox to give the leftovers to!

for julian calender types nativity fast starts sundown on the 28th of nov. and is rarely an issue. although you usually give the leftovers to a non orthodox because the fast starts with in a day or 2.

as polycarp, noted some do follow the food rules, others do not, and not advertizing your fasting/abstaining is the first rule. one should not say “oh, i can’t eat that i’m fasting/abstaining/don’t you know it is lent”. just another way the orthodox church stays under the radar.

[Gary_Robson]

@Shinna_Minna_Ma

How is this “fasting?”

That threw me when I read it, too. When the doctor says, “fast for 12 hours before coming in for that procedure,” he certainly doesn’t mean, “eat all the clams and broccoli you want, but skip the porkchops.”

I’ve heard definitions of fasting ranging from “no food or liquid at all” to “only water” to “only clear liquids,” but never something that includes a scallop, artichoke, and mashed potato dinner as “fasting.” I could live with that. Heck, I may fast tonight

[Polycarp]

@Gary "Wombat" Robson

@Shinna_Minna_Ma

How is this “fasting?”

That threw me when I read it, too. When the doctor says, “fast for 12 hours before coming in for that procedure,” he certainly doesn’t mean, “eat all the clams and broccoli you want, but skip the porkchops.”

I’ve heard definitions of fasting ranging from “no food or liquid at all” to “only water” to “only clear liquids,” but never something that includes a scallop, artichoke, and mashed potato dinner as “fasting.” I could live with that. Heck, I may fast tonight

Fasting can mean “not eating at all” (water is always permissible unless it’s a medically dictated fast and explicitly directed against), or "clear liquids only ", or “abstain from certain foodstuffs” (think of pre-Vatican II Catholic Fridays). The essence of a religious fast is that you give up eating something (either on a churchwide rule or individually) in memory of or preparation for something, as a task in personal discipline, and/or in order to give the money saved as alms.

[Shinna_Minna_Ma]

@Anne_Neville

I should mention that all Jewish holidays are on a specific date of the Jewish calendar. The one exception is that fasts other than Yom Kippur get postponed to Sunday if they fall on Shabbat. We don’t have any holidays that are constrained to a specific day of the week the way Easter or Thanksgiving are. Rosh Hashanah is always on the first of the month of Tishri, Hanukkah is always on the 25th of Kislev, Passover is always on the 15th of Nissan, and so on.

I don’t think that’s entirely true. The first day of Rosh Hashana can only fall out on a Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, or Shabbat, so that other holidays won’t fall out where they shouldn’t. For example, the first day of Rosh Hashana can’t fall out on a Sunday, because then Hoshana Rabba would fall out on Shabbat.

[Anne_Neville]

@Shinna_Minna_Ma

@Anne_Neville

I should mention that all Jewish holidays are on a specific date of the Jewish calendar. The one exception is that fasts other than Yom Kippur get postponed to Sunday if they fall on Shabbat. We don’t have any holidays that are constrained to a specific day of the week the way Easter or Thanksgiving are. Rosh Hashanah is always on the first of the month of Tishri, Hanukkah is always on the 25th of Kislev, Passover is always on the 15th of Nissan, and so on.

I don’t think that’s entirely true. The first day of Rosh Hashana can only fall out on a Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, or Shabbat, so that other holidays won’t fall out where they shouldn’t. For example, the first day of Rosh Hashana can’t fall out on a Sunday, because then Hoshana Rabba would fall out on Shabbat.

I mentioned that. But Easter and Thanksgiving can only fall on one day of the week. We don’t have any holidays like that. We have holidays that can fall on one of several days of the week, but none that have to be a specific day of the week. If the Sadducees had had their way, counting the Omer would always start on a Sunday, and thus Shavuot would always fall on the same day of the week instead of on a fixed day in the calendar. Instead, Shavuot is always on the sixth of Sivan, not always on the same day of the week.

There is the exception for the fast days- they can be moved if they fall on Shabbat. But otherwise, every holiday has a fixed date.

[Eva_Luna]

@rocking_chair

communism did have a toll on the church. the churchs there were not able to teach the religion and books were not able to be printed. the church has made a comeback since the 1990’s, i remember someone in my church had a newpaper from moscow that had a front page article on great lent and what one was to do. quite a difference.
just like anywhere, people have their kids baptisted and may be go on a major holiday and don’t do anything else, and consider themselves part of that religion.

You don’t say! I was atthe monastery at Sergiev Posad in June of 1995, just in time for the Feast of the Trinity (I may have the name slightly wrong, what with the translation and not having a clue about the Russian Orthodox Church and all). We were forewarned to dress and behave respectfully, women should wear long skirts and cover their heads, Russia was experiencing a return to religious practice, etc.

So some of us were curious about what the holiday was about, and asked our group leader, who didn’t have a clue himself, but promsed to find some little old Russian lady to ask once we got there. When we arrived, we found quite a festive atmosphere, as well as quite a lot of young Russian women wearing such respectful church attire as Spandex bike shorts and tank tops.

Our group leader, as promised, founbd a little old Russian lady with flowered shawl and all to ask about the holiday. She was very friendly and did her best to be helpful in explaining what the Trinity was all about…“you know, the Trinity! Jesus, Mary, Joseph…” Needless to say, I still don’t know what that holiday was all about.

[Find_Friends]

@Kyla

@Trans Fat Og

Wow. That’s very, very ODD.

Are they trying to remind people that it’s wrong to try to get even?

I doubt that’s it, since the idiom wouldn’t translate!

I’m not sure where the custom came from or exactly what it signifies, but I understand it’s also practiced in Romania. I don’t know how widespread it is.

Well, yeah, I think it would be extremely rare for such wordplay to work as well in one language as another. Especially when we aren’t even talking about very closely related languages.

But I was… you know, … only making a joke.

Or trying to.

[rocking_chair]

i gotta admit i hadn’t heard about the odd/even thing. three is “good” number, lots of things in church services are done three times.

eva luna, trinity day is pentecost sunday when the holy spirit descended on the apostles and they went out and started to teach the teachings of christ. it is also known as “green” sunday, all the fabrics in the church go from pascal white to green, people attending church will wear green and there can be branches and reeds hither and yon in the church and people attending may carry branches and flowers.

the week that follows that sunday is one of those that is fast free! woot! steak on friday!

kyla, the christmas eve dinner is quite a thing… i know the russian tradition is to have 12 courses of non dairy or meat foods. not an odd number… but 12 for the upcoming apostles. this is a strict fast day, and the dinner is usually held after sundown, thereby allowing fish, oil, and wine, as technically after sundown it is the next day.

there is traditionally kutya, a clove of garlic and bread, soup, vegetables, fish, fruit, & nuts. straw is put under the table or table cloth for the manger (i guess you could eat that if you get peckish, also fun to balance plates on.).

this is to be the only meal that day, and is eaten before the great compline that night, (in some churches it is literally all night). the same meal is done again with out the straw (thankfully a stream of water is not ness. under the table or on it.) on theophany eve, followed by the same great compline with baptised subbed for born etc.

should you last through the service you get first dibbs after the blessing of water instead of waiting until the next day. it is amusing to see people rush the water with their bottles. (you can also fill up at the next water blessing the next day or wait for sunday when the holy day is a weekday.) also there is a bit of a scrum around the priest to get a date and time for him to bless the abode.

[Find_Friends]

@rocking_chair

eva luna, trinity day …

kyla, the christmas eve dinner …

rOCKING cHAIR, there is something called capitalization at the beginning of sentences. i held off saying anything to your first post, buT c’moN!

It seems [del]odd[/del] strange that you would not do so, especially since you clearly seem otherwise familiar with the English language, as well as intelligent.

IOW, other than the capitals, I can’t… compline!

• mE

[Dan_ch]

Polycarp and rocking chair covered the subject very well. Just wanted to add that in Romania fasting is a widespread practice (especially amongst older women), but is not very strict (a lot of people are fasting just for a week or two, or they’re eating cheese or eggs, but no meat). It does not affect much the rest of the population (depends on who’s doing the cooking in the family ), and the shops are supplied with meat, eggs and milk as usual.

Also, it’s not a big deal and tends not be mentioned in conversations. Someone may refuse a piece of steak or you can overhear a conversation about where to find ingredients for preparing a ‘fasting’ lunch, but people do not announce it loud. Sometimes it is announced in the news, usually at the beginning or end of long fasting periods (e.g. before Easter or before Christmas).

As for the even/odd number of courses, I’ve never heard about this. However, I can confirm the practice of offering an odd number of flowers for happy occasions and an even one for funerals. I have no idea where it comes from, but I think it has nothing to do with the Orthodox church. Could be rooted in some pre-christian traditions.