Okay, so what is the argument FOR parental consent?

[DianaG]

@furt

I’m not being snarky, but honest – what are they?

Adolescents are regularly prescribed birth control and treated for STDs without parental notification or consent.

[Shodan]

@even sven

I want to hear one doper woman say “As a teenager, I was determined that if I got pregnant I would abort. Now, with my adult wisdom, I realize that what would have been better would be if my parents had forced me to carry the child to term.”

OK, then, since you seem to believe this would resolve something, I will ask how many pro-life Dopers would react to news that their daughter wants an abortion by beating the crap out of her?

@Barely Adequate

A responsible adult needs to be involved in medical decisions affecting a minor.

Right. And we call that responsible adult, “DOCTOR”…

And if that doctor responds, “no, abortion is morally wrong, so you can’t have one”, is he still a responsible adult?

Or does your definition of “responsible” necessarily include “pro-abortion”, in the same way that Der Trihs’ ignorant nonsense does?

Regards,
Shodan

[DianaG]

@Shodan

And if that doctor responds, “no, abortion is morally wrong, so you can’t have one”, is he still a responsible adult?

He’s certainly not a responsible doctor. But since no one here is suggesting that it should ultimately be the *doctor’s * decision, I’m not seeing the relevance.

[Shodan]

@DianaG

He’s certainly not a responsible doctor. But since no one here is suggesting that it should ultimately be the *doctor’s * decision, I’m not seeing the relevance.

Barely Adequate did. That’s the relevance.

It is being argued that anyone who resists the idea that abortion is always a good idea is, by definition, irresponsible. You did it yourself, with the suggestion that a doctor who believes that abortion is morally wrong is “not a responsible doctor”. I assume, therefore, you would support some kind of action against that doctor - revoke his license, for instance.

And always from those that insist that they are “pro-choice”. Sure you are - you support the right to choose abortion. The right not to, for yourself (if you are a doctor) or for your children - not so much.

Regards,
Shodan

[Guinastasia]

@SaintCad

I hit submit rather than enter so this is a continuation of my last post.

My post never blamed the girl for the rape. Rather I was demonstrating that that minors may not make the best decisions. If a girl chooses to keep herself in a situation where she is being raped rather than getting protection, it is reasonable to call in her decision-making under stressful conditions (like facing a pregnancy).

:eek:

You have got to be fucking shitting me. So now the abused 13 year old is partly at fault because she should just run away?

Well gee, if she can’t even get an abortion without asking her own rapist for permission, then how the HELL is she going to be able to get out?

[Der_Trihs]

@Shodan

Or does your definition of “responsible” necessarily include “pro-abortion”, in the same way that Der Trihs’ ignorant nonsense does?

I’m not “pro-abortion”; very few people are. I’m pro-choice. Did I say the girl shouldn’t be allowed to keep the baby ? No, I didn’t. I’m not arguing for abortion, I’m arguing against forcing girls to bear children.

[furt]

@DianaG

Adolescents are regularly prescribed birth control and treated for STDs without parental notification or consent.

At the risk of moving the bar: are there any non-reproductive medical choices we allow minors to make without parental guidance.

[doreen]

@furt

At the risk of moving the bar: are there any non-reproductive medical choices we allow minors to make without parental guidance.

Substance abuse and mental health treatment.

[furt]

@doreen

Substance abuse and mental health treatment.

Where/when? Not to be a pain, but I’d like a cite.

[doreen]

@furt

Where/when? Not to be a pain, but I’d like a cite.

Sure, New York
http://www.nyclu.org/rrp_minorsrights.html

[Stratocaster]

@jsgoddess

And the arguments generally advanced for the need for consent are purely because for some it is absolutely unacceptable for abortion to be allowed in any way, for any reason.

I think there are times when the girl should have the baby. I think there are times when the girl should abort. You, on the other hand, think they should all have to carry the child to term.

Which of us is the dogmatic one?

Why in the world do you think I am interested even slightly in whether or not you or anyone else thinks her perspective is more reasonable or that I am dogmatic–with regard to my child? It’s my child, and you shouldn’t get to intrude upon us with your great “wisdom” as to when abortions are warranted and when they are not.

1. There are other treatments available without parental consent (how many times do I have to repeat this?), and

Are you kidding? Read my response. I specifically allow for procedures that don’t require parental consent. Go scold somebody else.

2. Yes. There is something historically and socially special about abortion and those other treatments that make them more likely to result in abuse than getting a wart frozen off. That is precisely the point. If 50% of the US were devout Christian Scientists, other treatments would fall under the same umbrella.

Right. Let’s assume abuse. That’s fucking reasonable.

[DianaG]

@Shodan

Barely Adequate did. That’s the relevance.

No he didn’t. You said that a responsible adult needs to be involved. He said that responsible adult should be the doctor. There’s a difference between “involved” and “ulitmate decision-maker”. No one arguing here against parental consent has argued that anyone other than the pregnant girl should be the ultimate decision-maker.

@Shodan

It is being argued that anyone who resists the idea that abortion is always a good idea is, by definition, irresponsible. You did it yourself, with the suggestion that a doctor who believes that abortion is morally wrong is “not a responsible doctor”.

Actually, I didn’t. The statement I was responding to was:

@Shodan

And if that doctor responds, “no, abortion is morally wrong, so you can’t have one”, is he still a responsible adult?

I have no problem with a doctor who is against abortion, and so doesn’t wish to perform one, provided he follows his professional responsibility to refer the patient to someone who will. The exact same way that he would refer a patient to another doctor for any procedure that he, personally, does not perform.

@Shodan

And always from those that insist that they are “pro-choice”. Sure you are - you support the right to choose abortion. The right not to, for yourself (if you are a doctor) or for your children - not so much.

That? Is purely ridiculous. Do you have some special software that converts all of my (and many others’) posts into “Yay!!! Abortions for everyone!!! Put 'em on my AmEx!!!”

I don’t want any girl to be forced into either a baby she doesn’t want OR an abortion she doesn’t want. I’ve argued here repeatedly that just as many parents are likely to opt for an abortion, if the choice is left up to them.

[wonky]

@Stratocaster

It’s my child, and you shouldn’t get to intrude upon us with your great “wisdom” as to when abortions are warranted and when they are not.

There is no way for me to “intrude” upon your relationship with your daughter. No law can prevent your daughter from consulting you. I hope she would feel able to consult you. My parents were pro-life, but I would have told them everything. I trusted them to love me, no matter what. I trusted them to want what’s best for me. They never let me down, ever.

[wonky]

@Stratocaster

It’s my child, and you shouldn’t get to intrude upon us with your great “wisdom” as to when abortions are warranted and when they are not.

Oh, and by the way, this means that you won’t try to intrude upon us with your great “wisdom” as to when abortions are warranted and when they are not, right?

[furt]

@doreen

Sure, New York
http://www.nyclu.org/rrp_minorsrights.html

I am surprised and disappointed. But thank you for fighting my ignorance.

[Guinastasia]

@furt

I am surprised and disappointed. But thank you for fighting my ignorance.

Wait-you’re disappointed that kids can be treated for potentially fatal addictions and mental illness without parental permission?

What if you have a teenage girl with clinical depression whose parents are Scientologists? Should she have to get their permission to be treated?

[catsix]

Stratocaster said:
Why in the world do you think I am interested even slightly in whether or not you or anyone else thinks her perspective is more reasonable or that I am dogmatic–with regard to my child? It’s my child, and you shouldn’t get to intrude upon us with your great “wisdom” as to when abortions are warranted and when they are not.

What would you do if your daughter wanted to have an abortion and needed your consent?

What if she had already decided and didn’t want to discuss it?

[lee]

The reality is that parents do force abortions and do force girls to carry pregnancies to term. Parents can coerce children to do many things whether or not the law says it is ok. For some, if their parents know about a situation, then they will not have any say. This is not an area where I feel comfortable for the girl not having the say. It is her body and her life. Nothing bars a girl from telling her parents, and most will, but for those who don’t trust their parents, I am quite willing to accept that they may have compelling reasons.

An aquaintance of mine got pregnant by an abusive, older boyfriend. Her great fear was that her father would hand her child over to the boyfriend to raise and that he would abuse her child as he did her, she said it came far too close to happening. I don’t know the details, but in the end she gave the child up for adoption to a family she trusted and kept in touch with them and seems pretty damn sure that was the right decision for her.

[furt]

@Guinastasia

Wait-you’re disappointed that kids can be treated for potentially fatal addictions and mental illness without parental permission?

What if you have a teenage girl with clinical depression whose parents are Scientologists? Should she have to get their permission to be treated?

That falls well into the “unusual circumstances for which we can make an exception by seeing a judge” category. In normal circumstances, Cro-magnon that I am, I think parents should be informed if someone’s poking around in their kid’s psyches.

[wonky]

@furt

That falls well into the “unusual circumstances for which we can make an exception by seeing a judge” category.

I disagree. Shocker of shockers, I know, but a depressed kid is doing a lot by just seeking help. If the barriers are any higher, the kid doesn’t do it (in many cases).