Okay, so what is the argument FOR parental consent?

Way to cherry pick that post. My point was; this girl may be about to become a parent. You say a parent is a responsible adult, yet you do not profer that same designation to this person. Going through with a pregnancy and bearing a child will somehow magically garner her “responsible”? Please. As to your assertion that parental involvement is needed in “every other medical matter,” it’s been proven otherwise.

Possibly, but it’s not the parent’s place to make that choice. Guide their daughter if she asks for their advice and guidance? Certainly. Take the choice out of her hands completely? No. And for the third time, yes I absolutely think an underage girl should go to her parents for help should she become pregnant. And the issue is not whether or not the girl should have an abortion. Please stop trying to make it about that. It’s about whether or not the parents should be notified.

Yes, but you’re a bright guy so I’m not giving up on you. We’ll wedge some grey in there yet.

No, the parent is presumed superfluous. This is a sexually active teenager. They’ve already shown themselves to be independent enough to make choices that affect their life. And as it’s already been shown, it’s not just abortion.

It is not necessary to be a member of the US electorate in order to make this choice. All that is required is a positive pregnancy test. It isn’t anyone’s choice to make but the woman involved. She should certainly obtain help making that choice if she isn’t sure, and I believe she should talk with her parents. But the court and the doctor don’t belong in the middle of that talk.

No one is saying that. We’re saying physicians shouldn’t ask you to make your daughter’s choice for her, and that you should not be forced to do so.

even sven:

I disagree. Adults have been prosecuted as statutory rapists even when the minor in question was the aggressive, pursuing partner. I think that statutory rape laws express a fundamental societal opinion that a minor does not have sufficient maturity to genuinely affirm a willfulness to engage in sex. However, as a practical matter, if 14-year-old Suzy’s parents sue 15-year-old-Johnny for statutory rape, it’s only natural to expect Johnny’s parents to counter-sue for the same thing, and how does it serve the cause of justice to find two plaintiffs guilty and have them exchange the same amount of money…minus lawyers fees, court costs and time?

No, but it takes maturity and wisdom to come up with a conscientious answer to the issue of whether abortion is right or wrong, whether the fetus has a life or doesn’t. Not every pregnant teenager will grow into a pro-abortion-rights adult. But an immature kid acting for selfish or frightened reasons will almost certainly choose the expedient course rather than a course of action dictated by a fully-developed sense of moral reasoning. An adult who chooses to have an abortion is assumed to have thought through her position on abortion issues. A minor cannot be so assumed.

But parents place their children in an environment where they have the freedom of this choice. If they so wished, they could have enrolled their child in a more restrictive school, with fewer electives, and the child would have no ability to go elsewhere for his or her education.

And some items are age-restricted because…?

In both these cases, the decision isn’t being placed in the child’s hands.

The fact that it has such major effects is exactly why someone mature should be making the decision.

OK, a little analogy here. Let’s say you live in a city where robbery suspects have made many accusations of excessive force against the police. There is a Police Oversight Board that is meant to act on such complaints, but these suspects feel that the Board members are corrupt and in the Police Union’s pocket. Do you:

a) Tell police officers that arresting robbery suspects are no longer their job, but will be expected to turn themselves in for booking on their own, or
b) Keep the basic structure of the system the same, but root out the problems from the Police Oversight Board?

Maybe we’re a little unclear here on the source of her fear of abuse. Is she afraid she’d be abused over getting an abortion because she’s afraid of her parents’ political opposition to abortion? Or is she afraid she’d be abused over the fact that she’d been having sex, regardless of her parents’ political positions?

Perhaps I’m not tuned in to the way a pregnant teenager thinks. But I’ve always seen her as wanting an abortion without her parents’ needing to know in order to hide the fact that she’s sexually active, not in order to hide the abortion per se.

I very much disagree. Every single one of these distinctions has to do with estimations of maturity and judgment and wisdom. And if you (or any of the other anti-parental-consent-law folks in this thread) wish to argue for a different age line for abortion, I have yet to hear it. All I’ve heard is that a) anyone who’s pregnant, regardless of age (12? 11? How low can they go?) should be the decision-maker on the pregnancy, and b) parents should be cut out of the loop due to potential abuse.

Yet you’re also willing to allow for the possibility that she can choose to keep the child. Which means, you’re leaving this life-changing decision in the hands of someone with an immature, not-fully-developed sense of judgment and morality. Sorry, this makes zero sense.

Which would be fine, if that mature person would then have to live as intimately with the consequences as the person they are making the decision for.

There is no age-line for abortion. And at no point did I state that abuse was my only reasoning behind supporting that, although perhaps you are discounting my posts.

Makes zero sense when the person is 25 years old and is immature without a fully developed sense of judgement and morality. Are you under the impression that age implies maturity and wherewithal? Yes. I’m leaving the choice in the hands of the person it matters most to. The one who will have to live with the consequences, whatever she chooses.

She wouldn’t get it.

Children decide all kinds of things that they don’t want to discuss.

I understand exactly what is being recommended. My point is that it takes tremendous gall for you to decide that this is what’s best for my child. If you want your child to be able to get abortions without your consent, make the legal arrangements. I’m not interested in what you think is best for my child.

Then you obviously do NOT understand what’s being recommended. I wholeheartedly agree; it is NOT my place to decide what’s right for her. It’s hers. Just because you don’t happen to like the idea that your child is becoming an adult capable of making decisions without you does not mean I or any medical professional should be bound to release protected information to you. If she wants to come to you with that information, that’s all her. But it seems your only reason for demanding that we come to you for consent is so you can say no. That’s not a good enough reason.

So you want to force her to bear children ? How is that any better than molesting her ?

I’m sorry, but while I respect one’s right to raise one’s child as one sees fit, I do NOT think a parent has absolute rights over their child. One area is health-your right to swing your fist ends at your child’s nose.

Some people want far too much control over their children.

And maybe it’s me, but I find it irritating that people are arguing that a teenager isn’t mature enough to decide to have an abortion. But she’s mature enough then to be pregnant and bring another human life into being? Jesus.

Stratocaster, I’m not arguing that I should have control over what happens to your daughter. I’m saying SHE should have that control. Not me, not YOU.

Neither do I. I do think, absent abuse (for which they should lose their parental rights), they have an absolute right to be at least informed about their child’s health.

To clarify: I do not do not share or endorse stratocaster’s views.

I had thought Maureen was drawing the line at 15 or so, but judging by her response now, I guess not.

But I have specifically raised the extreme example of a pregnant five-year old and nobody else has wavered. For that matter, catsix said she’d be willing to let children (presumably of any age) decline life-saving treatment on the “it’s their body” principle.

This is exactly why I would have done everything I could to hide it had it ever happened to me. I knew 11 - 12 years ago what my decision would be, and that there was no way I would be willing to carry a pregnancy to term.

It’s not like refusing permission to go to a concert or dye your hair or get a tattoo. It’s not the kind of situation where an iron fist and absolute authority will help matters. Would you really want your daughter to resent you for the rest of her life for forcing her to become a mother?

Would you try to get her to give you the kid to raise, would you accept it if she put it up for adoption, or would you want her to keep it? You wouldn’t be the one to have to deal with it when 20 years down the line someone shows up at her door and disrupts her family to let her know that they’re the son or daughter she gave away. It’s not you who would be legally obligated to that baby for 18 years.

That’s exactly why, if you were my father (and your response sounds a lot like my father, who is staunchly pro-life), I never would’ve let you find out. You can call that immaturity if you want, but more than a decade later I still believe it was right. I could not accept the attitude that because he was my father, I had no rights to my own body. I still don’t, and I would to this day agree with any girl who felt the same. I would sympathize with her, not with a parent who lacked respect for her humanity.

I could be wrong, and would be happily educated, but I think that allowing a five yo to carry a pregnancy to term is incredibly ill-advised for her own safety. I think even the staunchest anti-abortion rights believers would waver when it came to that much risk for the girl’s safety and health.

Well, not the staunchest . Quite a few years ago, I recall an interview in Time with some anti-abortion fanatic; it may have been Randall Terry. When asked about women who will die if they can’t get an abortion, he said “Every woman who dies is a step forward for morality”.

I find it perfectly believable that some of these people would not only force a five year old to go through pregnancy ( and die ); I think the real extremists would positively gloat over it.

Well, I don’t know if it is or isn’t, but cite I provided earlier indicates it is possible.

And of course, the point isn’t that this sort of thing happens so often as to merit concern (although 12 year olds getting pregnant is distressingly common enough), but to find out whether people are really willing to stick to the absolutist “her body, her choice, no matter what” stance. I’d hope that such extreme examples would help us admit that there are in fact times where children are simply not equipped to make the decisions life confronts them with, and to move the conversation forward from there.

My point is that there is less of a decision to be made with a five year old. I would be aghast at anyone, no matter how rabid (including Randall Terry) who would argue for a five year old to go forward with a pregnancy. That is one case where any parent who denied consent would be, in my opinion, absolutely 100% unfit and an embarrassment to the species. It’s such a hard case that I don’t think anyone with a functioning brain would argue against abortion.

Make it a 10 yo and things get much dicier. I can recognize the weakness in saying “Let her figure it out.” But I simply can’t be okay with her being forced one way or another. Perhaps all girls under 14 who do not choose to involve a parent should have to undergo counseling and education courses to try to get them objective help. That’s not a good practical solution considering the state of most such institutions.

I would like to reiterate that any parent of a sexually active 10 yo has some ‘splainin’ to do, and any parent with a sexually mature child who has made no effort to ascertain sexual activity and get that child on some form of birth control is a damned fool. So many of these hard cases wouldn’t exist if parents would wake up and smell the, erm, pheromones. Sorry. I’m done.

It’s not just you. I’ve been reading this thread and can’t understand how someone can be too immature to make the decision whether or not to have an abortion but can somehow be mature enough to be a mother.

I’m sorry if my recent posts caused you to second guess that. I said there is no age limit currently, and that abuse is not my only reason for supporting the stance that parental consent is not necessary. But I did reply to you earlier that I support the age limit being between 14 & 16, and I stand by that post. Prior to the age of 14 (and even for some girls at that age), pregnancy is extremely ill advised.

Would it shock you beyond all reasonable expectations that many (perhaps millions?) people to do see any moral implications at all in regard to either abortion or child-birth? Some would see these as purely medical procedures that bear no more moral dimension than a routine tonsillectomy or extracting a tooth.

Agreed; which is why I’m less interested in parental consent per se. I have to believe that we can find some sort of middle ground between “Let her figure it out” and iron-clad “mummy and daddy have 100% control of your body” laws. I think we can find compromises that preserve “choice” while still making sure that a child’s guardians (assuming they are fit and responsible) are involved in helping her make that choice.

There’s no question that some people sell short the ability of mature 16 &17 year olds to make responsible choices; but I think we can also oversell the ability of immature 14 and 15 year olds to do the same. The reason we end up with babys being put into dumpsters or left in hotel rooms is because some immature girl got pregnant, got scared and spent nine months unsure about what to do … and then the choice was made for her by nature.

Agreed. But a lot of parents who haven’t been as attentive as they should will wake up when faced with a serious issue; and for that matter even attentive parents can be fooled. My parents were about average in the attention department, I suppose, but they were a bit naive; my mom probably still thinks I’m a virgin and I’m 35. For that matter, I don’t think you can ignore a child who has been raped or exploited and who do not say anything out of fear or guilt.

If nothing else, getting the parents involved can ensure the issue is addressed in a timely manner. I don’t think I’m alone in saying I’m much more at ease with an abortion happening at 8 weeks instead of 8 months.

Ill-advised, sure, but the question is whether girls should be allowed to make the choice with zero parental input or even notification. I had understood you earlier to say “yes” over 14/16, but "no"or at least only “maybe” for those under that age. Correct?

My own situation as a teenager is why I’m leery of parental consent laws. Everything I’m about to tell you is true. I can e-mail specifics to anyone who is interested.

When I was 16 years old, I was fondled by the father of a woman I was taking dance lessons from. Fortunately that’s all it was. I told my parents, but my father didn’t do anything because he didn’t want to risk his reputation in the community. A few months earlier, I had confessed to attempting suicide in Social Studies class. Word of this, of course, got back to my parents as it spread throughout the small town I lived in. My parents refused to do anything about getting treatment for me. I was not allowed to learn to drive because I was too irresponsible because I couldn’t keep my room tidy enough. When my father would inspect my room after I’d tidied it, he would check for dust on top of the windowsills and, when he found it, that was shown to me as evidence of my lack of responsibility. My father also threatened to throw me out a few times.

If I’d gotten pregnant in that situation, it would have been a nightmare. Many years later, I was talking with Dad about girls who got pregnant in high school. He said to me, “You don’t really think I would have thrown you out, do you?” I told him he’d have threatened to, and he admitted that. I would have believed that threat, back then. Looking back at things nearly 25 years later, I can see that things wouldn’t have gone as badly as I thought they would have. As I said, Dad wouldn’t have actually kicked me out. Being the practical, sensible people my parents are, some solution would have been arrived at. Getting there, though, would be, if you’ll allow me a stereotypical British understatement, highly unpleasant. To be precise, I think it would have involved several long lectures from my father about how stupid, irresponsible, worthless, and useless I was. Since I was getting the same message from my peers and I already had a history of suicide attempts, this could have been what pushed me over the edge to suicide. Going to a judge to get around parental consent would have been difficult. As I said, I wasn’t allowed to even learn to drive. The county seat was 20 miles away over some pretty steep hills. Getting there on a bicycle would have been difficult and there was no mass transit. There was mass transit to the next county, and the county courthouse was on the end of the bus line. On the other hand, naive geek that I was, I had no idea how to play hooky from school, although as I type this, I realize that if the incentive were strong enough, and fear of my father was a pretty powerful incentive, I would have found one. I was too ugly, too antisocial, and too generally unpopular to have a date, let alone a boyfriend in high school, not to mention a colossal prude. If I’d gotten pregnant, let’s just say I wouldn’t have been a voluntary participant in the process.

From what I know of my teenage self and my family, if I’d gotten pregnant while I was in high school and parental consent were required, odds are pretty high I would have committed suicide rather than tell them or go to a judge. I would have thought they’d throw me out if I told them, and I’d be in even more trouble if they found out I went behind their backs.

I understand the pro-life position that even one aborted child is one too many, I really do. On the other hand, my position is that even one woman whose life is lost because she cannot have an abortion is one too many. I love my family dearly and Dad and I have sorted things out over the years, but part of what I’ve had to sort out is acknowledging just how bad things were. I was a nice, respectable kid who got good grades and who came from a nice, respectable family. My father never beat me; I have no physical scars I can show you. Instead, until a few years ago, I had a physical, flinch reaction in which I’d duck my head as if I were dodging a blow, a legacy from my father. Even with treatment, there are times when Dad’s old litany of “worthless, stupid, useless, irresponsible”, etc. runs through my head.

It’s because of girls like me, whose situation isn’t as good as it looks on the surface that I must respectfully disagree with those who’d mandate parental consent. I’m willing to concede that in 99% of families it isn’t necessary. I’ll even concede that my teenage perception of what my father’s reaction would have been was wrong. I didn’t know that at the time, though. How could I? As I said, he’d threatened to throw me out because I couldn’t keep my room tidy enough. I figure getting pregnant would have been worse. I wish we did live in a world where no child was ever afraid of his or her parents and where abortion was something which never needed to be considered. Until that world comes about, I’m afraid I can’t support parental consent laws, even with a judicial work around. I wish I didn’t know the things that lead to that position. Mangetout, you know how highly I think of you, but on this issue, it looks like we must disagree.

Respectfully,
CJ