Okay, the dowsing question

[Princhester]

@GusNSpot

It is fun to see people foam at the mouth in denial that anything of this sort can happen at all.

Yep, well it sure does mess up your keyboard some, though. All this goddamn foam. Just keeps coming right outta my mouth. Hard to say what it is, exactly. Bit sticky though and playyyyyys helllll wittttth the keys onthe kkkkkkkkeyboard.

OK, got it cleaned up.

Lot a folks don’t believe about skeptics foaming at the mouth. But I tell ya, Bob and Jack and a few of them guys, in about '73 or so we just stood around and set up a test in a, umm, a field (yeah, that’s it) and we got some dowsers to start talking and we had cameras there and lab guys to take samples and we then just started foaming. Lab guys couldn’t figure it out. Some days, guys on building sites would want some construction foam, for filling voids and whatnot, we’d just have a little race, they’d have the aerosol can and we’d just have us skeptics and a couple of woo woos. It was fun. Never tried to prove anything by it though.

[Valgard]

FWIW, Randi had three water dowsers accept his challenge years ago. The whole thing is written up in his book “Flim Flam”. This includes photos, diagrams of the test area, a copy of the challenge details agreed to by everyone and so forth.

All of the dowsers failed.

I second what Princhester said - if someone out there can really display dowsing abilities in an accurate, repeatable manner contact JREF and take them up on their challenge. If you’re in the SF Bay Area and are looking for the three preliminary witnesses that JREF will doubtless ask for, please feel free to contact me to act as one (I have no dog in this fight, although I do put myself squarely in the “skeptical” column).

[Mangetout]

@groman

A wooden stick suddenly plunging downwards? Ideomotor movement or fraud, almost certainly.

Two conductive metal objects of similar shape and size bent to pivot freely in the same plane held parallel converge or diverge inside an electromagnetic field? I’ve seen it happen, I’ve done it myself, and I can’t tell if it’s wishful thinking or not. Most likely it’s the same as above, but note that there is nothing fundamentally magic about metal moving in even a slight electromagnetic field (be it of a powerline, a TV or a person). For one, two similar conductive objects held using non-conductive holders by a human being provides all sorts of neat things like a temperature gradient, capacitance and inductance, all very slight but perhaps sufficient to provide a ‘compass needle’ like effect. If I had the time I’d do a few experiments but up until now I have not seen a single study that can confirm or deny this (because it’s a rather retarded thing to study to begin with), so the question remains open.

I’m certain I’ve seen experiments (no cite at the moment, sorry) where the two bent wires were free to rotate, but the vertical parts were in tubes that were constrained to be parallel and that under these conditions, the wires didn’t cross or diverge.

[glee]

Whenever dowsers are tested, they fail. Here’s one example where the guy had a 100% record in practice, which dropped to standard chance when he didn’t know where the object was:

'The results were that when Mike G. knew the location of the concealed target (the “open” tests), he obtained 100% results. When the test procedure was double-blinded, he obtained exactly what chance alone would call for: one out of ten correct. ’

http://www.randi.org/jr/032902.html

Note the use of double-blinding - nobody present knew where the object was.

@samm

(bolding mine)
My dad knew where the line was buried. I suppose from when he added my grandmother’s mobile home onto our property and he helped hook up her utilities or what not? We didn’t dig it up that same afternoon or anything.

That website says, “honest, intelligent people can unconsciously engage in muscular activity that is consistent with their expectations” - but I had no expectations when my dad handed me the wires.

I assume your Dad was present when you were testing. A reasonable explanation is that he tensed up when you approached the power line and you noticed (subconsciously or not).

Animals can ‘do sums’ using the same principle (their owner gives signals).

There’s a society of dowsers in the UK. I contacted them and asked if I could learn. They assured me it was a ‘gift’ anyone could learn to use, and it was cheap to have lessons.
I asked if they could pass tests.
“Oh no, doing it for money destroys the gift. We can’t pass tests.” :rolleyes:

[Princhester]

@glee

“Oh no, doing it for money destroys the gift. We can’t pass tests.” :rolleyes:

Except of course for all those professional dowsers in the States who dowse for water…

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Princhester

Except of course for all those professional dowsers in the States who dowse for water…

Their contracts clearly include “For entertainment purposes only” in the fine print at the bottom of page five.

[FRDE]

I was the person who brought up dowsing in the GQ thread, and was so surprized by the reaction that I just started a thread here - before I spotted this one

• I would be grateful if that inadvertant duplication could be removed (Mark Twain ?)

In the first example I quoted, a large company that was experienced in bottling brought over their own pet dowser.

In the second example, the whole thing was completely mundane, just standard practice, what I did not say was that the dowser mapped the entire water course.

Since we are not in GQ, I’ve heard but cannot cite, that dowsers are used in London to identify water leaks.

I’m not sure about the ‘profit’ thing, but I suspect that people don’t much like being regarded as freaks.

For example, I know a guy who can do some pretty strange tricks sensing crystals, he is definitely not a conscious charlatan - and not stupid - but I’m not sure that he would relish being paraded as a freak.

[Mangetout]

@FRDE

In the first example I quoted, a large company that was experienced in bottling brought over their own pet dowser.

All this demonstrates is that someone managed to convince the company bosses that it was a good idea.

For example, I know a guy who can do some pretty strange tricks sensing crystals, he is definitely not a conscious charlatan - and not stupid - but I’m not sure that he would relish being paraded as a freak.

What sort of tricks?

[Ignatz]

Once upon a time, long ago and far away, I went to work, as an NU co-op engineering student, with a medium-sized Mass. city’s engineering department. The first thing I was told about was the use of two L-bent brass rods, with the short arms set into 4" copper tubes which are held in outstretched hands, to find underground water pipes. I was skeptical, to say the least.

The proving ground was a residential street on trash day, with all the trash barrels set out at the roadsides. Before I got out of the car in the vicinity of the test, my boss (the city engineer) and cow-orkers moved some trash barrels to cover the roadside water meters at several houses, unbeknownst to me.

Then I got there and they gave me the rods and told me to deploy them, pointing straight forward, while I walked down the roadway.

Et violá, the rods would mysteriously rotate sideways when I was opposite some of the trash barrels and they would not rotate at other ones. It was pointed out to me afterwards, that where they did rotate was over the location of the water lines going from the main to the water meter. After that job, I worked for two different cities in different states and each of their water/sewer departments used the rods routinely. I even have my own set, though I don’t get much use from them now as I got out of that type of work long ago.

The rods’ routine use has been OBE’d (overcome by events) by technology and there are now electronic detection devices that work quite well for all u.g. location purposes, but the $2 rods are still useful backups for the more expensive e’tronics.

The only conditions where the rods would not work to find underground pipes was when I was under overhead power lines that disrupted the magnetic fields.

I am no longer a skeptic for the rods. I have never used or seen used the twigs, but I have seen documentaries on tv about them and read articles about them and I am still ambivalent about them.

[Tibby]

The ideomotor effect that explains dowsers, was also responsible for a similar parlor trick that I used to have fun with as a young lad. With the thumb and index finger of your dominant hand, suspend a threaded pin above your other hand, which is palm down on a table (the pin should be positioned an inch or so above the hand). Then have your chums ask you “yes”, “no” type questions while you try to keep the pin motionless. Work out beforehand what pin motion designates “yes” and what signifies “no” (N to S / E toW or clockwise/counterclockwise). Try as you might, the pin will slowly begin to move in one of the designated directions, and the motion will get stronger and stronger. And, Abracadabra, the answer was always correct! Not a bad polygraph machine for a 7 year old. We learned which girl each of us found cute, who did what to whom and other such things…oh, we located Jimmy Hoffa’s remains, too. More recently, I had my wife submit to the* pin*—now I have incontrovertible proof that she was engaged in flagrante delicto with the pool maintenance man. I didn’t see that one coming. :mad:

[Sage_Rat]

@Ignatz

Et violá, the rods would mysteriously rotate sideways when I was opposite some of the trash barrels and they would not rotate at other ones. It was pointed out to me afterwards, that where they did rotate was over the location of the water lines going from the main to the water meter. After that job, I worked for two different cities in different states and each of their water/sewer departments used the rods routinely. I even have my own set, though I don’t get much use from them now as I got out of that type of work long ago.

If you can show yourself to be able to do this reliably, then you can win a million dollars, it might be noted.

[Mangetout]

I know the Randi Million Dollar Challenge thing is almost a reflexive reply in threads like this, and is often used pointedly and/or aggressively toward people claiming support of things like dowsing, but I would like to ask (in all earnest, and with nothing but kind intentions): If you honestly believe dowsing works and you honestly think you can personally make it work, why would you not apply for the challenge?

[fisha]

Ah, screw it. I really don’t have a dog in this fight, and I don’t much care. If you all want to come out to MN, I’ll try to go find some little flag thingies, and we’ll call up a locator, and see if we match in the same spot. If we don’t, no big deal, I really am not comfortable with the whole thing. But if indeed it worked…I have a funny suspicion you guys still wouldn’t believe. And I still think that it is different with dowsing and locating, two completely different animals. I do know for a fact that the locators themselves often would locate, even when not directly hooked up to the specific line, and oftentimes there’d be “bleeding over” to other lines.

As an aside, has there been conclusive scientific, double blind studies? Beyond this Randi
guy?

Here is an article describing some methods for detection, and the need for better devices for detection.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/ttic/utilfnl.htm

Just to play devils advocate. If all of these different methods of underground detection have failure rates, and some of them are pretty high, are we sure that they aren’t just hoodoo, too?

Often when we were locating, our first method was direct connect, and after that normal operation, then surface, then after that, well, we’d ask another locator with a different machine, then after that, while we were sitting there, waiting for the “big guns” to show up, we’d break out the flags. It worked. Not all the time, but often enough to be a part of the arsenal.

Talk to anyone who locates for a living, they’d agree with me.

[fisha]

@Mangetout

I know the Randi Million Dollar Challenge thing is almost a reflexive reply in threads like this, and is often used pointedly and/or aggressively toward people claiming support of things like dowsing, but I would like to ask (in all earnest, and with nothing but kind intentions): If you honestly believe dowsing works and you honestly think you can personally make it work, why would you not apply for the challenge?

Because I don’t think it’s 'paranormal" It’s just another detection method. That’d be like saying the line detectors are paranormal, because you can’t see the “invisiblemajik” inside.

Remember, I am not discussing dowsing, this is a different kettle of fish.

[FRDE]

@Mangetout

All this demonstrates is that someone managed to convince the company bosses that it was a good idea.

What sort of tricks?

Just identifying them without touching or seeing them.

As for the company, they were pretty hard nosed - a privately owned Belgian bottler - and not a tiddler.

The one that really interested me was my pal in North Devon, he is no fool, also recently moved there, and he seems to now regard the thing as standard operating practise.

I am getting a bit cautious about dismissing things out of hand, while there are plenty of charlatans out there …

One of the things I’ve noticed is that people tell you more if you don’t jeer, they don’t like being ridiculed or looking odd.

[Mangetout]

But why don’t they want a million dollars? That’s what I honestly don’t understand.

[Mangetout]

@dahfisheroo

Because I don’t think it’s 'paranormal" It’s just another detection method. That’d be like saying the line detectors are paranormal, because you can’t see the “invisiblemajik” inside.

Remember, I am not discussing dowsing, this is a different kettle of fish.

That would not disqualify you from entering the challenge, since dowsing is regarded by mainstream science as a paranormal claim. JREF doesn’t ask you to explain how you think it works (in fact they ask you not to bother); they just want you to demonstrate it.

[Mangetout]

@dahfisheroo

Remember, I am not discussing dowsing, this is a different kettle of fish.

If it involves little bent bits of wire crossing when they are supposedly above a sought object, it is dowsing.

[fisha]

@Mangetout

But why don’t they want a million dollars? That’s what I honestly don’t understand.

Well, I’d like a million dollars today, but I’ve got to go to my in-laws.

In all seriousness, here’s why I won’t be applying for this million dollars. There will never be conclusive proof. The bar will always be raised higher. Well, sure you located this line, but YOU MIGHT HAVE GUESSED WITH YOUR EXPERIENCE THAT IS WHERE IT WOULD BE

Then it’d be

WELL, BUT YOU HAD YOUR EYES OPEN

then it’d be

WELL, BUT WAS A LIVE WIRE

then it’d be

WELL, IT WAS A STEEL PIPE

then it’d be

WELL, IT WAS SANDY SOIL

ad nauseum.

Listen, ALL locating devices have a failure rate. Sometimes, you just need to get out the damn shovel and start digging.

And I’m not going to go have a big frickin’ circus going on about this issue, and this Randi guy, and a million bucks, I am not a hoodoo kinda girl. I have to go to the in-laws today, eat me some turkey.

Shit, you know how much notoriety I would get in my small town for that?

[fisha]

Mangetout, if the kingdom of butter is anywhere near America’s Dairyland, bring me some little flag markers, we’ll go on a treasure hunt. You bring the shovel…