Okay to ask guest to leave their guns at home?

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@Really_Not_All_That_Bright

Presented without comment.

Wow.

…the basic rule is that you should attack what the other person says, not the other person.

I didn’t think** the content of your posts **could get any dumber…

[BrandonR]

@Nava

As Stranger in a Train pointed out, carrying a loaded gun while in someone’s house implies that you don’t trust them.

No it doesn’t. It implies you don’t trust their neighbors or anyone who may be roaming through the neighborhood. It has 0 to do with how much you trust the host (or at least it usually does). I have a gun in my own place of dwelling. Does that mean I don’t trust my girlfriend and dog?

And yeah, if someone respectfully requests not to bring a firearm into their house, then it’s just common sense to either follow their request or decline their invitation.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Cicero

In Australia, no one carries guns so the concept doesn’t emerge.

Well, the trade-off is a few dingo-eaten babies, so no system is perfect.

[BrandonR]

@Blake

I don’t think anybody else cares. It’s simply not an issue. The odds of *you * needing it or not is irrelevant. Only two points are relevant.

One is that the weapon being in my home entails an increased risk to me and mine. The other is that I have right to decide which risks I place on me and mine in my own house.

Sure, there’s a risk in both having a weapon to defend yourself and not having a weapon in a time where you’d need to be able to defend yourself. I think the real point, however, is that in the hands of a responsible gun owner, the risk of having a firearm around is as close to 0 as you can get. If it stays concealed (kids won’t know it exists and don’t try to grab it) and properly holstered (no chance of negligent discharges) I really wonder where the risk is. Of course the chance of your home being invaded on Thanksgiving where the criminals can obviously see a bunch of cars and activity inside is probably also very minimal, but I’d wager it still happens every once in a while somewhere.

But your homeowner rights are still the most important thing in this situation. If you want to be defenseless sitting ducks then that’s okay with me.

[mswas]

@Markxxx

This is really an excellent way to test the old age custom of etiquette and manners.

Proper etiquette dictates as a host you are always to make the guest in your home feel comfortable, even if the act makes you uncomfortable, unless there is a valid reason not to.

This is where it gets tricky. For instance, if your hosts served you strawberries for dessert you should eat them, even if you hate them. Of course if eating strawberries gave you an allergic reaction then it is proper to decline and the host should be gracious enough to not only understand but to accomodate the guest with a substitute dessert.

Another example would be smoking. If a guest wants to smoke and you don’t like it and don’t want it in your house, you need to forget this and allow your guest to smoke. The idea being is the guest is a PERSON and your clothes that may retain the smoky smell are just pieces of cloth that can be washed or even replaced. People can’t be replaced, clothes can so etiquette would say allow him to smoke.

Now if you had emphysema it would be perfectly fine to request no one smoke, because you would be getting real damage to you, and the guest should understand and go elsewhere to smoke.

This is how old school etiquette worked, the host always went out of their way to accommodate their guest unless there was a valid reason not to.

In the case of guns it is interesting. You as a host have a duty to make the guest feel at home and if you have reason to believe he is fully qualified to handle that gun you should let him have it. As host your first duty is to your guests.

Now if he’s the kind of person that gets drunk after one or two drinks and starts fighting everyone, and you are serving alchohol, you would be justified in saying no. Of course a better solution would be NOT to serve alcohol to begin with and avoid this problem.

That was old school etiquette and now-a-days, it is much different and it’s pretty much, “my house, my rules” type of deal.

That’s not how old-school etiquette worked at all. There was no time you were required to let someone smoke in your house if you didn’t like it. That’s why there were such things as smoking rooms.

As for weapons it has ALWAYS been ok to ask someone to put their guns away in an environment like a home. Unless they are samurai, and whoever this person is having over for Thanksgiving isn’t a samurai, and we’re not worried about their Katana.

[Blake]

@BrandonR

I think the real point, however, is that in the hands of a responsible gun owner, the risk of having a firearm around is as close to 0 as you can get.

You have the right to believe that. Others have the right to believe differently. The evidence for either position is as close 0 as you can get. The only way you could support your position with evidence is by by putting a kilt on your gun owners and claiming that any instances where other gun owner have injured someone they weren’t responsible.

Of course the chance of your home being invaded on Thanksgiving where the criminals can obviously see a bunch of cars and activity inside is probably also very minimal, but I’d wager it still happens every once in a while somewhere.

All that is relevant (if this is relevant at all) is is whether having someone armed inside the house at the time makes this any less likely to happen, and if it does happen whether it makes it less likely that someone will be injured. Because if those two aren’t true then all you’ve done by bringing the handgun is multiply my risks. I’m still at the same risk from the burglary and now I’m also at risk form your firearm.

In reality neither is very relevant. Of paramount importance to me is whether I consider it preferable to lose my TV and turkey, or to have my family in the middle of a gunfight.

[gonzomax]

@Argent_Towers

Okay, here is a completely plausible scenario:

Someone is invited to dinner at the home of another person in a very shady, rough part of town. He drives there, can’t find a spot next to the house, and has to park several blocks away. The dinner begins at 7:00; by the time he leaves, at (let’s say) 9:00, it’s completely dark outside. He has to walk through this shady area four or five blocks back to his car.

In that situation, this person would like to know that he has the protection of his handgun during that five-block walk to his car through the shady area at nighttime.

Let’s say that this person is a small, weak, elderly woman who has been the victim of a rape or robbery in the past. She has no chance of fighting off an attacker.

You would really begrudge this person her right to be safe and secure as she walks to her car?

And lets say she is wearing her favorite shirt that says “I hate Crips” and it lights up in the dark and she looks just like Sarah Palin. Would you deny her the right to protection?

[Blake]

Let’s say she’s also blind, deaf and in a wheelchair. And you know that the local gangs have a membership requirement that any member who finds a gun on a victim has to shoot them with it. And the streets have flooded, and there are dogs with bees in their mouth, and when they bark they shoot bees at you.

Inventing ridiculous scenarios doesn’t really aid the debate much, does it?

In the real world if you were genuinely concerned for this person’s safety you would:

A) Offer them a bed for the night.
B) Offer them a ride back to their car/call them a cab.
C) Warn them in advance not to drive to your house.
D) Not hold the dinner party on this ludicrously rough neighbourhood.

Suggesting that the best tactic is to send a “small, weak, elderly woman” out into the 'hood after dark to get into a gunfight is fucking ridiculous.

[kayaker]

Back to etiquette:

If a guest enters your home, and is being patted down for concealed weapons, does the person doing the frisking have to be of the same sex as the friskee? What allowances should be made if the friskee is wearing a colostomy bag?

[ExTank]

Look, I think Argent framed his hypothesis badly, but at root, he has a point. Unfortunately, it’s stil not one that transcend’s the homeowner’s right to decide whether or not to allow a firearm in their home.

Let me attempt to repharse this. Argent, feel free to correct me if I don’t get this quite right.

Leave out the debate about why people who chose to carry do so; assume for now that they have valid reasons, like some of the ones I listed upthread.

Basically, the gunowner’s right to self protection doesn’t begin and end at someone else’s door; having to leave the firearm in a vehicle, while subotpimal (car could be broken into, stolen, etc.), is just about the only realistic option.

Now if my car is parked some distance away from the “no-gun-in-my-house” host (as can happen in some urban environments, where after-hours parking can be problematic) I may not hear my car alarm go off if someone tries to break in. I am unprotected as I move from their door to my car.

A person carrying concealed probably isn’t worried about being attacked in the host’s home (I read your post, CrazyCatLady), it’s about maintaining positive control of the firearm outside of parking it in the gun safe back at home.

Now the people in this thread who seem to be expressing concern that the gun owner they just invited into their home is suddenly going to pull out a firearm and start shooting for no apparent reason, I gotta ask: what kind of people do you know? Do you have friends or family that you ever invite over that display this sort of tendency?

Or some who seem to think the firearm will just randomly or mysteriously discharge on it own volition while in its holster; “the gun just went off” is the excuse of someone who didn’t follow basic firearm safety. Any manufaturer who makes a firearm that really does “just go off” is an immediate candidate for bankruptcy through personal injury lawsuits, and having every single one of their products removed from the market by the government.

A holstered firearm is only infinitesimally less safe than a firearm in a gunsafe.

Still, at fith and last, the homeowner has the ultimate say; any visitor must abide.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

but I know a lot of people here are pretty defensive about their gun rights.

There is no right to bring a gun into somebody else’s home, so “gun rights” have no relevance.
I don’t want anyone bringing a gun into my home around my kids. If I were to find that someone had snuck one in, I would consider that a severe breach of trust and friendship – enough so, that I might just have to beat that person’s ass with his own gun.

There is absolutely no reason anyone NEEDS to bring one, by the way, and I don’t care how much the gun fetishists want to snivel about their “rights,” and how they don’t have to justify it. Sure you have a right. So what? You have a right to be a neo-nazi too. That doesn’t mean it’s not creepy, and disordered, and socially maladjusted.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

Whether you’re comfortable about leaving your gun in your car is not my fucking problem. I don’t give a shit what happens to your gun. If you don’t want to leave it in your car, then leave it at home. Bringing it into MY home is not an option. If you want people to respect your own rights, then you have to respect theirs. I have a right to forbid guns in my house. The end. Yoiu are not entitled to an explanation either.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Argent_Towers

Okay, here is a completely plausible scenario:

Someone is invited to dinner at the home of another person in a very shady, rough part of town. He drives there, can’t find a spot next to the house, and has to park several blocks away. The dinner begins at 7:00; by the time he leaves, at (let’s say) 9:00, it’s completely dark outside. He has to walk through this shady area four or five blocks back to his car.

In that situation, this person would like to know that he has the protection of his handgun during that five-block walk to his car through the shady area at nighttime.

Let’s say that this person is a small, weak, elderly woman who has been the victim of a rape or robbery in the past. She has no chance of fighting off an attacker.

You would really begrudge this person her right to be safe and secure as she walks to her car?

Your scenario is ludicrous, but the answer is yes, I would begrudge it, and I would pistol whip the bitch in my driveway if I found out she brought a gun into my house.

[Stranger_On_A_Train]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

…and I don’t care how much the gun fetishists want to snivel about their “rights,” and how they don’t have to justify it. Sure you have a right. So what? You have a right to be a neo-nazi too. That doesn’t mean it’s not creepy, and disordered, and socially maladjusted.

Okay, now you’re just being an asshole. Is it seriously impossible to have a discussion about the technical, practical, cultural, and edicate aspects of firearms ownership without descending into invective and ad hominem?

Stranger

[ExTank]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

Okay, now you’re just being an asshole. Is it seriously impossible to have a discussion about the technical, practical, cultural, and edicate aspects of firearms ownership without descending into invective and ad hominem?

Stranger

Ignore him, Stranger. Ignore him the same way you’d ignore a Neo-Nazi standing on a street corner spewing vile nonsense.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Stranger_On_A_Train

Okay, now you’re just being an asshole. Is it seriously impossible to have a discussion about the technical, practical, cultural, and edicate aspects of firearms ownership without descending into invective and ad hominem?

Stranger

We’re only talking specifically aboout people who would be unwilling to respect the request of another person not to bring a gun into their home. Anyone who can’t respect THAT right has something wrong with them.

[Grumman]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

I don’t want anyone bringing a gun into my home around my kids. If I were to find that someone had snuck one in, I would consider that a severe breach of trust and friendship – enough so, that I might just have to beat that person’s ass with his own gun.

There is absolutely no reason anyone NEEDS to bring one, by the way, and I don’t care how much the gun fetishists want to snivel about their “rights,” and how they don’t have to justify it. Sure you have a right. So what? You have a right to be a neo-nazi too. That doesn’t mean it’s not creepy, and disordered, and socially maladjusted.

We’re the gun fetishists? We’re not the ones threatening to attack our friends just for carrying a gun, Dio.

You have a right to ban visitors from carrying a gun, and people should abide by that rule. But that doesn’t mean that you aren’t being irrational. It’s your failing, not ours.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

I didn’t threaten to attack anyone for carrying a gun.

ETA the “fetishist” I had in mind was Argent Towers, who was going to ridiculous links to argue with people who don’t want guns in thir home instead of just accepting it as their own right, equal to his. He was also complaining about how much he hates it if people ask him to explain why he “needs” a gun, while simultaneously feeling entitled to an explanation for why someone else might not want a gun in thir home.

[kayaker]

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

I didn’t threaten to attack anyone for carrying a gun.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

I would pistol whip the bitch in my driveway if I found out she brought a gun into my house.

…

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@kayaker

…

And…? Where did I say I would attack anyone for carrying a gun?

The cause for an ass-kicking would be bringing a gun into my home against my expressed will, not “carrying” one.