Okay to ask guest to leave their guns at home?

[ExTank]

@Whack-a-Mole

Now who is moving the goalposts. YOU provided that study to toss at me to prove your point. I showed it didn’t and now you poo-pooh it.

The only point I was making is that the D.O.J. had done such a study.

@Whack-a-Mole

Further, the points they make are glaring and obvious.

Take it up with the D.O.J.

@Whack-a-Mole

For the number YOU want to be true more people have to be defending themselves from some crimes than actual crimes committed. It is absurd on the face of it.

What is absurd is your claim that I want certain numbers to be true.

@Whack-a-Mole

Sorry you do not like it but facts can be troublesome like that sometimes. If you read on through page 10 it explains how the false positives skew the data.

Yes they do; they put the true estimate at 108,000 per year. I don’t think that’s a paltry number. That’s 1997 numbers, btw; I have no idea where they are at today.

@Whack-a-Mole

Fine. I am noting they could put a halt to that without putting a halt to research which they did in that case. At least I presume someone could find a way to mandate a responsible process for scientific research. Have the researchers produce their methodology and open it to peer review. Once a methodology is deemed valuable and and honest means of gathering and assessing data they can then get more money to go out and collect data.

Like this one?

[enipla]

@Whack-a-Mole

Fine. I am noting they could put a halt to that without putting a halt to research which they did in that case. At least I presume someone could find a way to mandate a responsible process for scientific research. Have the researchers produce their methodology and open it to peer review. Once a methodology is deemed valuable and and honest means of gathering and assessing data they can then get more money to go out and collect data.

Hmmm. You want peer review? Talk to me or my neighbors that have had bears break into their home.

The only data I need is to know that I am safer with a gun at home. Ever chase bears off your property? I personaly do not care if the threat is on 4 legs or 2 legs.

I said before that I live in an very, very safe area. Part of the reason IMHO, is because everyone here is smart enough to have at the very least a rifle or shotgun.

It bothers me that there are people with absolutley no knowlege of firearms (that much is clear) would tell me if I need one or not.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

It bothers me that people voluntarily live in places where they are liable to get eaten by bears.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@ExTank

What is absurd is your claim that I want certain numbers to be true.

Presumably you are trying to show why having a gun as a guest in someone’s home is reasonable because you might need to defend yourself. So we are looking to see what numbers we can glean to support or refute your notion. Since so far you seem to be on the side of carrying a gun in someone else’s home I presume you want to see numbers that back you up on that so you look reasonable.

Yes they do; they put the true estimate at 108,000 per year. I don’t think that’s a paltry number. That’s 1997 numbers, btw; I have no idea where they are at today.

108,000. Wow…big number! Till we put it in perspective.

In 1997 there were 267,637,000 people in the US. Let’s call it 200,000,000 adults to exclude kids (could not find a hard number on that in a quick search but seems in the ball park). 108,000 is 0.054% of the population.

We can try it another way. In 1997 there were 13,194,571 violent/property crimes (cite). 108,000 defenses represents 0.8% of crimes committed.

Hardly dazzling numbers. Then consider even the 108,000 number is questionable. Again from the same study:

Unclear benefits and costs from gun uses. Even if one were clever enough to design a questionnaire that would weed out error, a problem in interpreting the result would remain. Should the number of DGUs serve as a measure of the public benefit of private gun possession, even in principle? When it comes to DGUs, is more better? That is doubtful, for two kinds of reasons:

• First, people who draw their guns to defend themselves against perceived threats are not necessarily innocent victims; they may have started fights themselves or they may simply be mistaken about whether the other persons really intended to harm them. Survey interviewers must take the respondent’s word for what happened and why; a competent police investigation of the same incident would interview all parties before reaching a conclusion.

• Second and more generally, the number of DGUs tells us little about the most important effects on crime of widespread gun ownership. When a high percentage of homes, vehicles, and even purses contain guns, that presumably has an important effect on the behavior of predatory criminals. Some may be deterred or diverted to other types of crime. Others may change tactics, acquiring a gun themselves or in some other way seeking to preempt gun use by the intended victim.16 Such consequences presumably have an important effect on criminal victimization rates but are in no way reflected in the DGU count.

I would add that we in no way know that a gun was the only means of defense that would work. No way to ever really tell this of course but I think it is safe to say there are circumstances where a gun is used in self defense that might have been resolved well for the defender even if they did not have a gun. Such circumstances much exist. A flip side to that is how many gun users escalate a situation unnecessarily and make it more dangerous? Again no way to tell but again such situations must occur which would mitigate the gun defense further.

In short defensive use of a gun is dubious at best. Certainly it happens but overall the numbers do not look to support that having a gun provides more safety than danger to those who have them. Certainly I cannot see how you having one in my house improves things for me.

Like this one?

That is a study of existing studies. Not original data collection that I see.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@enipla

Hmmm. You want peer review? Talk to me or my neighbors that have had bears break into their home.

The only data I need is to know that I am safer with a gun at home. Ever chase bears off your property? I personaly do not care if the threat is on 4 legs or 2 legs.

Pfft…invite him to dinner with you.

It bothers me that there are people with absolutley no knowlege of firearms (that much is clear) would tell me if I need one or not.

It bothers me that some people want to bring their guns into my home against my wishes. We have had posters in this thread who are highly educated on firearms and who almost everyone they know has firearms and who would not dream of taking one as a guest to another’s house. Point being knowledge of firearms does not preclude someone from wanting you to leave yours in the car.

[independentminded]

@silenus

Carrying in someone’s house, where you are a guest, and where you know the host is against guns (for whatever reason) is just plain rude. Leave it in the car.

Yup…not to mention irresponsible, to boot. Better still, leave the firearm(s) at home altogether, and locked up and unloaded, for safety’s sake!

[Czarcasm]

@enipla

Hmmm. You want peer review? Talk to me or my neighbors that have had bears break into their home.

The only data I need is to know that I am safer with a gun at home. Ever chase bears off your property? I personaly do not care if the threat is on 4 legs or 2 legs.

I said before that I live in an very, very safe area. Part of the reason IMHO, is because everyone here is smart enough to have at the very least a rifle or shotgun.

It bothers me that there are people with absolutley no knowlege of firearms (that much is clear) would tell me if I need one or not.

If you promise to leave your gun at home, I’ll bear-proof my house, okey dokey?

[bengangmo]

@gonzomax

We all don’t share the same experiences. Perhaps ARGENT lives in an area where he has to shoot his way out of the house to go to work and shoot his way back in at night. He may live in a terrifying part of town.
I live in the Detroit suburbs. I have 2 beagles and I know how to use them. Thieves want your stuff …They don’t want to get hurt. They don’t want to get caught. That is why they avoid homes with loud doggies. They just want to buy drugs. They don’t want to hurt you. That requires family and friends. That requires a pissed off spouse. If anybody is living in fear of serial killers, I feel sorry for them. You would have to get real unlucky become their target. I suppose there are areas where you are in greater danger than most. But being afraid to walk out the door without a gun. I feel sorry for you. I would not want to live with that kind of fear.

I think this bears repeating, I would hazard a guess that generally speaking criminals fall into two broad categories.

1. Those that just want your proeprty / money without drama
2. Those that are there to seriously fuck you up come hell or high water.

For group 1 - yes, a gun will probably scare them off, but it may also intensify the situation by backing them into a corner or putting them under stress and force them into something they wouldn’t otehrwise have done. I personally don’t believe my property is worth it - but your mileage may vary of course.

For group 2, I think this group is relatively small, and that having a gun you will end up in a shootout - which may be a better outcome. But I would also suspect that many of this group get their guns from people that bought them legally (via theft, breakins etc) so without so many people having guns, they would never have got hold of a gun to be a threat in the first place.

[enipla]

@Whack-a-Mole

Pfft…invite him to dinner with you.

It bothers me that some people want to bring their guns into my home against my wishes. We have had posters in this thread who are highly educated on firearms and who almost everyone they know has firearms and who would not dream of taking one as a guest to another’s house. Point being knowledge of firearms does not preclude someone from wanting you to leave yours in the car.

I agree 100%

Please let me be clear about this. I would never bring a gun into another persons house if it was against their wishes. I don’t carry so that’s not likely to be an issue in any case.

And yes, I do live in bear country. I keep a firearm loaded in the fall. That’s when they are likely to break in. Food and hibernation an all that tends to send them a bit over the edge. I’ve never had to shoot a bear, and hope I never do. I have kept a gun close when I scare them off by banging pots and pans together. Sometimes, that doesn’t work, and a round into a stump near the bear will shoo him off.

I understand that I share my home with them. I know that I impact their environment, and try as much as I can to live and let live.

[Zeriel]

That’s what’s bothering me about the latter part of this thread–people responding to friendly engagement from “I would leave it in the car” gun advocates as though they’re “I’ll bring my gun to your house hell or high water” folks.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Zeriel

That’s what’s bothering me about the latter part of this thread–people responding to friendly engagement from “I would leave it in the car” gun advocates as though they’re “I’ll bring my gun to your house hell or high water” folks.

Actually, it looks more to me like “Okay, I won’t bring my gun to your house because I shall generously but grudgingly respect your right to be a giant pussy who is ungrateful for all the freedom my gun guarantees you.”

Well, not exactly that, but it’s closer than what you said.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

It’s not what Zeriel or most of the other gun people said, though.

[Airman_Doors_USAF]

@Bryan_Ekers

Actually, it looks more to me like “Okay, I won’t bring my gun to your house because I shall generously but grudgingly respect your right to be a giant pussy who is ungrateful for all the freedom my gun guarantees you.”

Well, not exactly that, but it’s closer than what you said.

See, and that’s a shame, because it didn’t go off the rails until the latter half of this thread. Every other gun owner in this thread agreed without reservation, insults, or ludicrous scenarios that they would respect the wishes of the homeowners.

Thanks, susanann, BrandonR, Argent Towers and jtgain, we love carrying the weight of your patently absurd arguments, and we appreciate that nobody remembers any arguments but the ones that you have made. It makes it so much easier to have rational discussions in the future.

[Zeriel]

Gun Owners who think it’s reasonable/understandable to say “don’t carry in my house” (or who expressed no opinion but a blanket “will comply”) and would comply: 14

@Stranger_On_A_Train

However, if someone were to invite me as a guess and politely request that I come unarmed (“I’m sorry, but firearms just make me a little nervous. Could you leave yours at home/in the car,” I dont think I’d have any other curteous response other than to agree (or politely decline with regret). Frankly, it is a bit of a slight to carry in someone’s house uninvited, as it implies that you find their protection is inadequate.

@Crafter_Man

I am usually armed. But I will leave my weapon in my vehicle if I know (or believe) the owner doesn’t welcome armed guests.

@Rack-a-Bones

I think most people are going have the same answer–I’d leave it in the car. And no doubt they will all have their cars properly locked and the gun properly stowed.

@pullin

Your property, your rules. You want me to leave it at home; I will. No if’s and’s or but’s.

@ExTank

As I see it, a Homeowner’s right trumps my (and anyone else’s) 2nd Ad. right. If my host don’t want them in their home, I’m (and everyone else is) obligated to leave them behind.

@Airman Doors

The thing that would NOT be OK is if someone brought one anyway after being asked not to. That’s just wrong.

@TruCelt

Re: the OP I would be very appreciative that my host had let their feelings be known, and I would consider it unthinkable to violate their trust. I do think looking it in the car should be an acceptable compromise and would be willing to park on the street if necessary to keep it “off” the property.

@Scumpup

In response to the OP, I’d secure the gun in the car.

@ducati

As adamant about my 2A rights, if my SIl or anyone asked me not to carry in their home, I would comply without complaint.

@Green_Rosetta

Thus, I see no reason why anyone should be offended if I ask them to leave the gun at home when they come over to my house.

@FallenAngel

I carry everywhere I legally can. I do have a couple of friends who aren’t comfortable with guns in their homes; so I leave it in the car. No sweat, no ruffled feathers. It’s their home, they get to set the rules. I’m no more offended by that than by friends who request that I take off my shoes when I come in.

@Zeriel

My personal preference is to judge individually, but if you must make a blanket ban, I know I personally as a gun owner who occasionally carries that I’d be much happier if someone told me “look, I ban guns because of crazy Cousin Bob, I don’t want to offend him”–that way I can at least feel like it’s not a trust issue with me personally.

@enipla

Sheessss. Everyone that I know has at the very least a rifle and or shotgun at home. …<SNIP>…
Face it guys. Being asked to not carry in a hosts home is not a ‘pussyfication’ of the host. And how DARE you Argent suggest such a thing.

@Martin_Hyde

The right to control your own property supersedes someone’s right to bear arms, period. I don’t feel you’re ever in the ethical or societal wrong by asserting your own right, and you don’t have to explain to anyone why you want guns left out of your home.

Gun Owners who will comply but got even marginally bent out of shape by it: 4

@Argent_Towers

I don’t know anything about the “weapon in the car.” It doesn’t matter. The weapon in the car is irrelevant. What is important is the concept of “Concealed Carry.” Someone who carries, carries everywhere because he believes that a threat can occur anywhere.
This is the very basis behind the concept of carrying a concealed pistol.

@unclviny

I would certainly observe the desires of the inviter
…<SNIP>…
If someone felt that they had to make that demand of me I probably would not have a good time there anyway, I’d just decline the invite.

@BrandonR

But your homeowner rights are still the most important thing in this situation. If you want to be defenseless sitting ducks then that’s okay with me.

@jtgain

So far, all I have heard is a declaration from your side that you simply don’t allow guns in your home. Fine. If I was invited to your home, I would respect that. It doesn’t make it right. That’s the whole point of this thread. Why do you think that your view is okay?

Gun Owners who would not comply: 2

@Harry1945

I have trouble understanding why the question would even come up. If I’m carrying a gun, why would I feel you needed to know? It isn’t as if we’re going to have show and tell after dinner.

@Susanann

I either would not go, or else I would go but not tell you.

Those are the only 2 choices.

(…and I dont want you to search thru my purse each time I come over, that is a very rude thing to do )

So basically of twenty gun owners I counted responding in this thread, 90% would comply with aforementioned reasonable request to leave the guns out, and only 30% would make any kind of stink about it at all.

I love primary research.

I wouldn’t even think it’s an issue if people weren’t responding to gun owners on the “your home, your right, no problem” side as though they were on the same side as Argent or jtgain or susanann or BrandonR.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

I think jtgain said somewhere else that he doesn’t actually own a gun, so I’m not sure if he counts.

[Una_Persson]

You can add me to the list of “would not carry into your house or make any fuss about it so long as I knew in advance.”

[ExTank]

@Whack-a-Mole

Presumably you are trying to show why having a gun as a guest in someone’s home is reasonable because you might need to defend yourself.

So we are looking to see what numbers we can glean to support or refute your notion. Since so far you seem to be on the side of carrying a gun in someone else’s home I presume you want to see numbers that back you up on that so you look reasonable.
[/quote]

Presumably you have NOT read this thread, or have a very selective memory, or are flat-out engaging in untruths.

I have maintained throughout this thread that I think it behooves someone “carrying” to respect their host’s wishes on the matter.

@Whack-a-Mole

108,000. Wow…big number! Till we put it in perspective.

In 1997 there were 267,637,000 people in the US. Let’s call it 200,000,000 adults to exclude kids (could not find a hard number on that in a quick search but seems in the ball park). 108,000 is 0.054% of the population.

We can try it another way. In 1997 there were 13,194,571 violent/property crimes (cite). 108,000 defenses represents 0.8% of crimes committed.

Hardly dazzling numbers. Then consider even the 108,000 number is questionable. Again from the same study:

You’re right; 108,000 is unquestionably low-end. Other studies put the numbers approximately an order of magnitude higher. Coincidentally, The D.O.J.'s initial estimate of 1.5 million agrees with the Kleck-Gertz probable estimate.

The problem with the D.O.J.'s methodology is that they compare their numbers to reported crime statistics. Unfortunately, the various law enforcement agencies are not set up to report non-crimes that didn’t happen because someone attempting to engage in a criminal act quit/went away after the attempt was reported, but before the police arrived. Or an armed person scared away/drove off someone attempting to engage in a criminal act after they called 911 but before the police arrived.

So the police, working by evidentiary rules, can’t say a robbery didn’t happen, they can’t estimate what crime(s) may have taken place if someone was attempting to actually break into someone’s home. All they can report is probably along the lines of property vandalism, or somesuch.

@Whack-a-Mole

Certainly I cannot see how you having one in my house improves things for me.

Since I never insisted upon bringing a gun into your home, and have consistently maintained that the homeowner’s desires are paramount, you can stop making this argument to me; it is a rebuttal to an argument I have not made.

@Whack-a-Mole

That is a study of existing studies. Not original data collection that I see.

It was a comprehensive review by the C.D.C. of existing studies, studying the impact of gun control.

It meets two of the criteria you were bitching about:

1. It was a government funded/conducted study by a reputable government agency;

2. It dealt specifically with gun control.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

@Una_Persson

You can add me to the list of “would not carry into your house or make any fuss about it so long as I knew in advance.”

Would you inform a person inviting you to their home for the first time that you habitually carry?

[BrandonR]

@Airman_Doors_USAF

Thanks, susanann, BrandonR, Argent Towers and jtgain, we love carrying the weight of your patently absurd arguments, and we appreciate that nobody remembers any arguments but the ones that you have made. It makes it so much easier to have rational discussions in the future.

:dubious: Absurd argument? I said I would comply with the homeowner’s request! The only point I ever argued was how comparatively small the risk of carrying a concealed weapon was. The true absurdity came from people claiming that a kid was somehow going to discover and locate a concealed firearm from a person, disarm said person, and then use the gun to blow their brains out or some other outlandish scenario.

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

Well, that and your contention that all responsible gun owners are superhuman creatures who never fall asleep after big meals or put things down just for a moment or forget for a millisecond that they are carrying a gun.