FWIW, I remembered. 
Isn’t that the way with anything, though? It’s always the loud, abrasive, obnoxious ones you see and remember. The religious fanatics, the gun nuts, the political extremists, etc. They’re more in your face, and let’s face it: more entertaining.
(Note: I am NOT calling anyone here a gun nut, necessarily. However, there are quite a few extremists)
Err…of course they can be. An anecdote does not have to be false (or a fictitious story). Indeed anecdotes I think are presumed to be true.
Displaying a laundry list of similar stories comprises anecdotal evidence. At least until the anecdotes add up to so many relative to the number of people in the country (or number of guns or number of crimes as you prefer for this case) where they can become a preponderance of the evidence. That is not the case with that site.
No one is disputing that someone has defended themself with a gun. Just that it is a bare blip (as cited up thread) in the scheme of things.
So we’ve got the battling anecdotes, now? Cases of guns used in self-defense versus cases of guns being misused at social gatherings?
Joy. Each side can claim they have evidence, while the other has only isolated cases.
I tried to quantify this in previous posts. I think the data, such as it is, does not support the notion of defensive gun use as particularly effective overall (in a statistical sense). It occurs to be sure and great for those folk but overall it is a bare blip in the scheme of things.
Yeah, but how can you talk of blips when people’s lives are at stake, man!
Please note that the above statement can be used to argue for self-defense and not letting guns in your house! It’s win-win!
The issue is at what price are those lives saved? Look at the stats of gun violence in homes where guns are present. FAR higher than people getting shot in homes with no guns (not even counting suicide by gun which is a huge part of it). Consider more guns are stolen* than people who protect themselves with guns. Basically people with guns to protect themselves are doing more to arm the folks they want to protect themselves against than anyone else.
On balance I am not seeing it adding up to actually being “safer” to have a gun overall except in some exceptional circumstances (e.g. bears regularly inviting themselves to dinner at your house, you are the head of some mafia, etc.).
*-About 211,000 handguns and 382,000 long guns were stolen in noncommercial thefts in 1994.
I’m pro-gun.
However, I don’t think anyone will need a gun at my house, after all, the turkey is already dead. I don’t have muggers hiding in the living room, there are no murderers camped out in the bathroom.
And it’s my house, my rules.
So no, it’s not unreasonable at all, for a person to tell his/her guests to leave their “hardware” at home.
Brandon, of course responsible gun owners don’t leave their loaded unsafed guns in their purse, or lying on the kitchen table, or in their pocket when they are passed out in front of the TV.
But the thing is, it’s not like people come with signs. And it’s not like people are either responsible or irresponsible. Most people are responsible most of the time, but sometimes they forget for a minute, and suddenly some toddler is waving around a .38.
I grew up in Alaska. Guns everywhere. Hunters everywhere. Hungry bears and angry moose and delicious caribou everywhere. And idiots, drunks, guys with hair-trigger tempers, drunks, incompetents, drunks, losers, drunks, addicts, drunks, nutbars, drunks, frootloops, drunks, imbeciles and drunks everywhere (notice a pattern there?).
We had guns in my house growing up, my brother was on our high school rifle team, we hunted, and so on. My family never had a problem, because we aren’t drunks, or retards, or drunk retards.
That doesn’t change the fact that there were plenty of retards, and drunks, and drunk retards who managed to shoot themselves, or their buddies, or their spouse, or some guy in a bar.
And the thing is, if you’re the type of guy who routinely carries around a pistol, my feeling is you’re probably more likely to fall in the second group than the first group. Yeah, yeah, YOU’RE a responsible gun owner. Except there are plenty of gun owners who aren’t. Half of all Americans are of below average intelligence.
It’s like the difference in pregnancy statistics between perfect use of condoms, and typical use of condoms. Used correctly condoms are 98% effective. Used typically they are more like 80% effective. And that’s because people are fallible, and they screw up.
What other thread?
Brandon, why are you refusing to answer my questions?
Well, there’s no reason at all to put me in the third group of people who would not comply with the homeowner’s wishes. I would certainly comply. I’d think it was a stupid rule, but I’d comply. I think it’s really stupid that I can’t smoke a cigarette at my favorite bar - I can’t even smoke it in the outdoor seating area - but it’s still my favorite bar and I won’t stop going to it. I think the rule is absolutely idiotic but I’m not going to pull out a cigarette and start smoking it.
So far people, including the pro-gun people, in this thread, have been acting like I’m some kind of lunatic. Especially Airman Doors, who I thought was once at one point on good terms with me but now seems determined to grind an axe against me. Well, I’m not a lunatic. And I would not bring a pistol into your house if you asked me not to.
What I have been saying and what I will continue to say is that I think it is an overly-forward, rude, and uncouth thing to pro-actively tell a guest to your house, in advance of him coming over, to not bring a gun. It is a request which is insulting to the person being asked, and it implies a lack of trust in him which I would think a true friend would be undeserving of.
I’ve tried to make my position here clear, with thought-out and reasonable arguments, in a mature way, but people keep dismissing them as stupid. It’s frustrating. I haven’t seen one good refutation of my belief other than a chest-thumping, “MY HOUSE, MY RULES” arrogance. I can practically see you guys, puffing up your chests and jutting out your chins, standing protectively in front of your wife and kids, with your arms crossed, and bellowing, “MY HOUSE, MY RULES.”
Whatever. Your house, your rules. I don’t know a single person who would make this kind of ridiculous request to me, and I’m glad I don’t.
I invite lots of people over to my flat who aren’t “true friends”, but casual acquaintances that I might like to get to know better, or play board games with, or who are dating someone I know quite well, or any number of reasons. Why is it rude to ask someone who you don’t know well enough to judge if they are a responsible carrier or not to leave their gun at home?
If you don’t know them very well, how do you know they carry a concealed firearm? In the world that I live in - and that does not include this message board, because we talk amongst ourselves about all sorts of things that we wouldn’t normally discuss with “strangers” in real life - you would not know that someone carried a pistol unless you already got to know him pretty well. It’s a personal thing. I don’t know anyone who openly volunteers that they carry unless they are around other gun people. And furthermore, you have no way of knowing if any given person is going to happen to have a concealed gun; are you going to ask everyone you invite over to “leave your gun at home…if you have one, that is”?
Oh right, I see where you’re coming from. I think most posters in this thread were assuming that the guest was known to carry, because that is the situation in the letter we’re all discussing. I agree that “Leave your firearms at home if you have them” is a bit silly unless it’s an area in which people regularly carry.
Still, I think it’s likely that you might know that someone carries (if it’s a hobby, they might have mentioned it on tea break, or at the water cooler or something) but not know them well enough to trust that they will carry responsibly.
And, I should say - even if someone did ask this of me, it wouldn’t make me hate them. It wouldn’t even make me dislike them, necessarily. I would think, “that’s kind of a weird question, and it’s kind of rude, but there are enough good things about this person that I’m willing to overlook it.” I would probably wish, in my mind, that I could persuade them to see things my way, but I wouldn’t try to actually do it. They think the way they think and I’m not going to try to force my views on them.
I think that in the context of this discussion forum, the implications of this question and the underlying reasons for it should be debated.
Would I engage in this battle with actual people in my day to day life? No. It just isn’t worth it.
And who is the judge of a rational discussion? You?
Well then I want a rational discussion on
In other words - my house, my rules is a perfectly logical reason and you don’t get to draw me into an unpleasant debate on my doorstep about logical and rational
I believe some in this thread have equivocated that yes, they would leave their gun in the car if asked but what the homeowner does not know won’t hurt them and they would carry in someone else’s house and just not tell them.
I agree it would be odd to query all your guests about whether they are carrying a gun so what do you do in this day and age? I feel if someone is carrying a gun they should inform the host of that fact and see if it is ok. It seems though that some people take the view the gun is legal and they would not inform you if they were wearing a t-shirt under their shirt so why would they mention the gun?
Should we post signs (weird)? Should we ask every guest (weird)? Or should the gun carrier make it known to the host to see if it is ok (seems the correct option)?
Note once decided one way or another with a given person (carry or no carry in their house) I would consider it a standing rule for the future.
I wasn’t, though, I was putting you in the group of people who were making a huge stink about a homeowner’s basic right to determine what is trespassing on their welcome and what is not.
For the record, this is because the standard etiquette of concealed carry is that you don’t let people know that you’re carrying, because that both upsets people and it gives advance warning to anyone who might want to fuck with you that you have a gun.
Actually, I think far more people on the dope than in real life even know I have a CCW, just because I was taught that it was more polite to not discuss it under most circumstances. (not that I carry anywhere).
Amongst the ccw set, it is generally considered a major faux pas to let others know you are carrying, much less display the weapon. “Concealed means concealed!” is the mantra.
If you visit gun boards, there is actually a long-standing (and often quite acrimonious) argument between those who favor concealed carry and those who wish open carry to be more socially accepted. I fall on the concealed side of that argument. I never display the gun, I never mention the gun, even when the discussion turns to guns. It’s nobody’s business but my own. Plus, I like having the element of surprise in the event the gun is actually needed.
Open carry is certainly more convenient and comfortable; but it upsets too many of the non-gun people and projects an attitude of confrontative machismo whether the carrier actually is that way or not.