Got a question about how framing works on older houses. I bought a small old house built in 1925. Orginially I think this house was a 20’x20’ square, it’s been enlarged somewhat since. Anyway, I’ve hired a guy to help me put in a door through a back wall in the kitchen. He got as far as opening up the drywall when we figured out the door I’ve purchased won’t fit and now we’re waiting on a special ordered door.
Anyway, looking at the opened up wall, I’m trying to figure out how the framing works. My guy has removed the drywall and the insulation and what I see in the opening is the back of the original (vertical, I suspect board and batten) siding and a beam (about 2"x4"-ish) running horizontally about half way up the wall. Around the beam, studs have been installed but they’re obviously much newer than the beam and have been notched to fit around the older horizontal beam. I suspect the new studs were installed to have something to hang the drywall on and the wall may have originally been lathe and plaster.
Anyone know a good resource for figuring out how the framing on a house this old probably worked? I’m a bit nervous about cutting through the horizontal beam with out fully understanding it’s role in the house’s structure. (disclosure, I am a structural engineer but most of my experience is with large scale concrete bridges, not small wooden structures)
From your description, the horizontal beam is probably a firestop, not anything structural. A house your age might well be balloon-framed, which you will see described here.
I doubt it fire stop, because the newer wood has been notched around it.
And you call it a beam. but it’s 2"x4" ish. And it’s only half way up the wall. Maybe it’s an old sill plate for a removed window, or a ledger for conecting a chicken coop or a coal bin and shoot to the outside of the house.
Fire stop is a realativealy new idea, and it is unlikely that it was installed in a house built in 1923.
Was all the lath an plaster removed for the drywall? The original building may have studs on odd centers that would not work for standard building sizes like 4x8 drywall. The drywalller may have cut in new studs all around. This would decrease the interior space a bit, but would also allow for extra insulation.
Because building codes and permits are a relatively new thing. Compared to a house built in 1925.
The horizontal beam is a 2x4. and it was ‘notched’ around by another ‘stud’ (not sure if it is another 2x4. Can’t do that unless you put up at least 2x6. And if you do that, it is no longer a fire stop. There is a gap.
I suspect the 2x4 that has been notched around is laying on its side (and not its face). The notched around 2x4 is facing the outside on its edge. To notch around it does not provide a fire stop because the will be about a 1-2 inch gap between the horizontal 2x4 and the interior wall board.
That’s why I think that the old 2x4 that is notched around is probably just an old sill or header. Or something that was cobbled together.
That’s correct, the old 2x4 is running on the 2"end and the newer studs are notched out about an inch to fit around it.
I kinda figured the house was balloon framed but I hadn’t seen this horizontal board in any balloon framing diagrams I’ve found. It doesn’t look like a sill to me, the rough opening is 39" and the 2x4 seems to extend beyond both studs on either sides (a length of over 45", the three studs I can see are 21" and 24" on center).
Anyone know anything about girt framing? I’ve found a few references to it online but not much info.
I’m not super confident in my handy man’s knowledge of older houses. And this wall is weird. The new framing was constructed at slightly above floor level similar to standard platform framing.
No worries, we’re putting in a new header with cripples and new king studs. I was just kinda flummoxed by this horizontal 2x4 and wanted to know if it had any role in the strutural system of the house. I just can’t picture how it’d be helping with any loads (and I’m pretty good at load tracing)…
Yeah, 39" is huge which is another reason I’m not that confident with this guy. The door was gonna be 32" but that won’t fit because it would interfere with a recently built laundry room addition (which is actually at a different floor height which is why we didn’t catch it the first time, the laundry room floor is low enough that the roof line of the addition would interfere with the door). So now we’re going with a special order 30" exterior opening door. I’ve double checked all the clearences and it should fit with some comfortable extra room for last minute adjustments.
Standard rough openings are 2" larger than the door. (New construction can vary) That allows for 3/4 for each jamb width plus a quarter inch on each side for shims and to account for out of plumb/square, etc.
Also allows for head jamb/carpet/tile on the vertical.
There is no way to figure out old framing without crawling around the attic, and knocking out plaster from the walls. I have remodeled dozens of old to really old houses, and it’s amazing what you would think is not a bearing wall but actually is, and vice versa.
Even just framing a new door opening, we always assume it’s bearing, and put up headers to apply. Even use double king studs and crips if we think it might shift. We don’t like callbacks.
One thing you might run into (which I also did, which is why I’m telling you this - my house was built in 1928) is that old 2x4’s may actually be real 2x4’s. In other words, they may have real measurements, not “pre-finished” ones.
Thanks for all the replies, I’ll take a couple of pictures and post 'em tomorrow. I’d feel more confident if I could picture how the framing works or find a diagram that features the 2x4. Now I’m wondering if maybe it was used as a furring strip. The old siding (covered up by T1-11) is board and batten.
Ok, I’m back with pics! Always more fun with visuals…
Anyway, here’s the cutout in the kitchen. You can see how tight the space is with the location of the fridge (eventually, I plan to redo the kitch and get a smaller, “Eurpoean-style” fridge, I don’t need such a large one for Diet Coke and fruit). You can clearly see the horizontal 2x4 I was talking about and the center stud has been removed. The door to the side is the 32" I’m gonna return, behind the door is some built into the wall shelves.
Close-up looking into the wall by the fridge. See how the stud is knotched around the 2x4 and the stud is also much newer.
Another close-up of the top and the removed stud. See the small hole with the black stick poking out? That was my guy’s test hole for the top corner of the door.
Overall back of the house. The corner sticking out is a niche for a stackable washer/dryer in my bedroom and has been fairly recently added. I guess I should explain that this house used to be two small house with a carport between them. The slab is the remnant of the carport. The other house is gone and this house has been modified to make it more livable but there’s not good access to the backyard.
Close-up under the eave of the laundry area. Remeber that black stick in the third photo? It’s a chopstick I poked through the test hole and here’s the end. Obviously a bad location to cut out an opening for a door. So the new plan is to get a smaller door (30") that opens the the exterior. It will swing towards you to the left if you’re standing outside and should just miss the laundry area eaves.
Anyway, that’s a whole lot of typing. What do y’all think that 2x4 is? I’m now thinking it’s what the board and batten siding was nailed to.
The wall you are going through is on the gable end of the house. It supports very little of the roof structure. As long as you have a good top plate, you could probably take the entire wall out.
I would not worry about that horizontal 2x4 one bit.
My interpretation is now the same as justrob’s. With vertical siding boards of that length, if you didn’t have a nailer at the midpoint, there’d be a huge amount of possible flex if somone, say, leaned on the outside wall.
To me it’s unusual to see the sheathing arranged vertically, rather than horizontally. Must be a regional thing, I guess.