Old manual SLR camera vs. new automatic one

Cafe Society
1

Photography is artistic, right?

I’m fixing to buy me a SLR. So I’ve been looking around on the net for info, and I keep seeing the Canon AE-1 recommended as a good beginner camera. This is a 20 year old completely manual camera, and it’s not that cheap. Maybe $200 with a 1.8 50mm lens. And it’s both used and ancient, so I’m thinking it could fail anytime.

OTOH, I could buy a brand new modern Canon Rebel 2000, which is about $215 for a body and $85 for a 1.8 50mm lens. About $100 more and tons more features, even though it’s a bottom-of-the-line Canon.

So what are the reasons to buy the old one? Why is it so often praised and recommended? Are there advantages to an old manual SLR over a new fully automatic one? So many questions!

2

I can’t think of a significant advantage to the old SLR. Your picture quality is completely dependant on the quality of the optics and the film, the body is pretty irrelevant.

I see manual cameras listed as good for a beginner or a student, but they seem to be much more trouble than they’re worth. You have to know a great deal more to get a good picture out of a manual. This is nice for students and those who want to do especially artistic things with the camera. There is no automatic option, so you HAVE to learn these things.

Personally, I prefer the automatics because I only want nice pictures, and don’t care if I learn the ins and outs of photography.

3

Depends on if you’re getting in photography as an artistic hobby or if you just want to take amazing snapshots while you’re on holiday. If it’s the latter you’ll still want to know a lot about the basics. If it’s the former, it will also depend on your subject matter.

The Canon AE-1 is an excellent camera for beginners who are learning the art of photography. Twenty years old is pretty darned old though. Sometimes the sensor is built-in meters can start giving truly bizarre readings, some springs can get worn and need to be replaced. But they are built solidly and being manual, provide you with the opportunity to really explore a lot of possibilities.

The Canon AE-1 is good for beginners because it’s solidly built and can take a fair bit of abuse. IIRC it has a really bright view screen which makes it easier to focus. Some of them have timers (which can be a must for photography students).

The most important components are the lens and the film. The body doesn’t matter much unless it’s a plastic piece o’ sh*t. Vivitar made a terrible, terrible body a few years back and tried to get deals through college programs. A friend of mine who workes at a camera stores was mighty pissed because every single one sold to students at one college were retuned within two weeks because the flimsy things were breaking.

You need a solid, reliable body. And very good quality lenses. Fully automatic cameras have more that can go wrong with them because the electronics are more complicated (if something goes wrong, it can be more expensive to fix). But if you want to be able to point and shoot, they’re pretty good.

I prefer manual because I shoot in very unusual light conditions and automatic cameras will automatically try to get me the best snapshot and do not give me the flexibility I need to take an accurate interpretation of the scene. I have to override the automatic functions most of the time anyway.

Note: If you are aiming for photojournalism type shots, automatic will make your life a lot easier. If you’ll be taking artsy shots that give you the luxury of time, you may find that manual cameras allow you to make fine tuned adjustments that suit your subject matter and shooting style.

You can always learn on one camera and then upgrade to something else or change formats entirely.

4

I agree with the other assessments. The type of camera you buy is dependent on what you plan to do with it. If you want to learn about photography, both shooting and printing, get a manual SLR, and take a class in black and white. If you want to take good snapshots for the family album, an automatic should be fine.

I prefer manual because I want to be able to make the decisions regarding aperture and shutter speed myself, without having to override built in parameters. I also shoot still lifes, and other motionless subjects. On the other hand, for sports photography or other action shots, setting automatic functions is useful because it allows you to concentrate on getting the shots without having to make adjustments all the time. For that purpose an automatic advance is also important.

There are a lot of good cameras available, new and used. Go to a store that sells used equipment and they can help you decide what you need and set you up with something that won’t break your budget.

5

The Pentax K-1000 was the student workhorse for a LONG time. AFAIAC, its big drawback was the fact that the lens mount was a “c” lens type. Over time, the threads give and the lens goes out of back focus. Aside from that, it was great.

I shot a Nikkormat that I got used at Olden Camera in NYC, for over 15 years. It was a great body, all manual. I switched to a Nikon 20/20. It does AF, but I also can go totally manual. Find a body that will truly allow you to go TOTALLY manual if you wish, and make sure you can get good optics. I agree with Cheesesteak, who resides very close to expensive but booze-soaked Scarsdale. A camera is a black box with film and an opening. Stick to the basics, and don’t let ANYONE baffle you with b.s. about computer driven hoo-hah. A computer chip is something that will fail in heat, or from a sharp rap to the body. Try to go with a balance between tech and sturdy.

Don’t be afraid to go with a heavier camera body. They get knocked about sometimes, and a 100% plastic body is, IMHO, a recipe for absolute disaster. Metal is your friend.

Good luck, and enjoy shooting. Oh, and I’m also with those who feel that shooting B&W is the way to start. Screw colors, you want to learn contrast, light and composition.

Cartooniverse

6

The Pentax K-1000 was the student workhorse for a LONG time. AFAIAC, it’s big drawback was the fact that the lens mount was a “c” lens type. Over time, the threads give and the lens goes out of back focus. Aside from that, it was great.

I shot a Nikkormat that I got used at Olden Camera in NYC, for over 15 years. It was a great body, all manual. I switched to a Nikon 20/20. It does AF, but I also can go totally manual. Find a body that will truly allow you to go TOTALLY manual if you wish, and make sure you can get good optics. I agree with Cheesesteak, who resides very close to expensive but booze-soaked Scarsdale. A camera is a black box with film and an opening. Stick to the basics, and don’t let ANYONE baffle you with b.s. about computer driven hoo-hah. A computer chip is something that will fail in heat, or from a sharp rap to the body. Try to go with a balance between tech and sturdy.

Don’t be afraid to go with a heavier camera body. They get knocked about sometimes, and a 100% plastic body is, IMHO, a recipe for absolute disaster. Metal is your friend.

Good luck, and enjoy shooting. Oh, and I’m also with those who feel that shooting B&W is the way to start. Screw colors, you want to learn contrast, light and composition.

Cartooniverse

7

Many times, a camera is recommended because someone is fond of their first or fave camera.

But, a good photo can be made with a pinhole camera and homemade film and a lousy one from the newest Canon, Nikon, etc… It really is photographer dependent, not camera (or even lens) dependent.

Do you want to learn the ins and outs of photography? Do you want to become an artist of the photographic medium? Then you will need to become familiar with how to manipulate the image to get the art you want. That means some manual control and some real knowledge of the science part of photography. Read some books, do some web searches, you’ll find a lot of interesting things to do or think about.

If you want to just shoot for the fun of looking at snapshots with your friends, go for as automatic as possible. Many of the newer cameras are very nice.

And you can always get a new camera that allows semi or full manual use. The best of both worlds.

Don’t be afraid of plastic. For general consumer use, it’s proven it self. Tho , I have to admit a bias for metal construction. Old school, I guess.

I used to teach photography, managed a camera store, and I still run a custom portrait business (among other things). I use a variety of cameras, from a real classic, the Leica M-3, to a home built 4 X 5 with Nikkor lenses. And I also use an all plastic fully auto Kodak APS. Depends on how much I want to do that day.

Digital is fun, too.

Bottom line: Just get into photography, any way. You can always buy another camera when you get familiar with what you really want to do.

Enjoy!

8

I absolutely love my Canon A-1, which is also about 20 years old at this point. I love the fact that I can set it to be completely manual, completely automatic, or somewhere in between (shutter or aperature priority Automatic Exposure modes, along with a stopped-down mode that lets me do real-time metering, so to speak). I love the metal body construction, since it means my camera can take some punishment. I’ve knocked it a couple times, and I’ve been grateful for that durability.

In short? I would highly recommend the A-1, but it’s pretty feature-heavy. You definitely gotta read the book that comes with it. It’s also just plain heavy, though not expecially so for an older SLR camera. But when I want to travel lighter or take a camera to a beach or something, I take the trusty plastic Fuji point-n-shoot. I care too much about my A-1 to take chances with it.

9

Boy, that A-1 sounds nice.

I agree with what everyone else has said here.

I was given a Olympus OM-10 many years ago, and I still use it to this day. It never occured to me to shop around for a new camera. The OM-10 is fine for what I want it to do—it is semi-automatic, (automatic shutter speed) and I have to tweak the ASA settings to get the exposure I really want. (Which is all the time, since I always do a lot of bracketing of exposures.) The OM-10 came with a “manual adapter”, but I never got one. So, while having an automatic feature is great, it’s more of a nuisance when all you do is override it anyway.

Just a few weeks ago, I got a new camera. I recently moved, and couldn’t find the OM-10. (I KNOW I put it in a safe place, dammit!) So, I went to my late father’s favorite camera store (a nice little mom and pop store called “Ernie’s”) and asked for a new camera. There was the whole sentimental thing about going to this store, as the people there still remember him, and I got to have a nice chat and a journey down memory lane. But, I also got what I consider to be a decent camera—a low end Vivitar (the type of camera my dad always got) for $200, on sale. Completely manual, with a built-in light meter. It has a nice heavy substantial feel to it (something that the salesman emphasized to me) and so far, it’s been fine. I used it a lot of my recent trip to Yosemite, I need to pick up the pictures from the camera store!

I must say, I am more in the manual camp. I can’t imaging having to struggle with overriding focus or exposure, unless it was extremely easy to do. But in my case, there is rarely any urgency when photographing Yosemite’s Half Dome (it ain’t going anywyere). However, (as others have mentioned) there might be more need for an automatic camera in other photography circumstances, so it all kinda depends.

10

First: why do you want an SLR? they’re not magical.

What do expect to get from it?

Secondly: How far do you expect to pursue photography? Is this something to keep handy/take on vacation, or the start of a collection of equipment?

If you are thinking the body you buy now will form the basis of an entire collection, make sure you get it right.

That said:

The auto-everything SLR’s are just p&s’s for grown ups - if you are never going to learn what “depth of field” is,why bother?

If you really want to become pro or semi-pro:

you can get an advanced model, and excercise the discipline to turn the ‘auto everything’ off.

-or-

get a manual model with which you are forced to compute film speed, apature, focus, and shutter speed - then learn about “depth of field”, motion blur.

I have passed out Minolta Maxxum 7000’s to beginners - it can be run as ‘auto-everything’, but is easy to switch to semi-auto (you set either shutter speed or aperature - it solves the flip side of the equation for you.

the 7000 was introduced in 1985 - they will all need new lithium “button” batteries, and some will die in the next few yrs (I have 2).

11

News Flash: **" Yosemite’s Famed Half Dome Disappears Off Face Of Earth, photos to follow !!! " **

Now, don’t you feel silly?

:stuck_out_tongue:

12

Another vote for the Pentax K-1000. Got it in 1988. It’s solid and simple, and you can still get lenses and accessories for it. (I just got a 500mm mirror lens that’s excellent for botany pictures!)

It’s got a simple light meter working on a watch battery. Just adjust aperture and/or shutter speed until the needle is in the middle. If you take note of bright or dark backgrounds and adjust accordingly, you seldom get a bad exposure.

It does have a bayonet mount, which is a big improvement over the old threaded one.

The only thing I wish was different is that it uses the cross-microprism focusing, instead of the more common split-image. What this means is that you’ve gotta have damn good eyesight to focus perfectly, because the viewfinder tends be dimmer.

And as Cartooniverse pointed out, it doesn’t do the clickwhizzclickwhizz thing. But you mentioned artistry; if it’s that over action shots, this is perfect.

But I also like it because it looks cool, in a classic way. It’s very impressive when I bring it out amidst all these little cheapie point-and-shooters.

13

Thanks for all the input. I have a tiny Canon digital camera for my P&S needs. This one would be for artistic or high quality shots and for learning.

In my price-hunting, I found another advantage of the old FD lenses. A 50 mm f1.4 is not an expensive lense in that world, but in the modern world it is over $300!

14

I’ll echo that the lense is very important.

Just because it’s a Nikon or Canon doesn’t mean it’s good. There are online sites that rate lenses.

Here’s a Nikon one: http://www.archiphoto.com/personal%20pages/Nikon.html

(There are better ones, but this is a start.)

Choosing photography equipment is itself a journey. I spent $40 on a digital camera that dollar for dollar was a FAR better deal than the most expensive lense I own.

Try renting or borrowing equipment, and see whether it suits your fancy.

15

My K1000 is 24 years old and does have split image focus. Love the old metal bodied bitch but odd little bits (like the rewind crank) are falling off and I fear I may have to replace it. Thank god manual focus SLR’s are still available-I’ve tried a few auto focus units (Canon Rebel most often) and they take too damn long to focus. I’m eyeballing this one http://www.pentaxcanada.ca/eng/products/MZM.html

16

Another vote for the K-1000. It’s technology was already ancient when I bought it in 1980, but it has proven a very dependable camera over the years, requiring only two repairs, one because I dropped it ten feet while inside its camera bag. :smack:

More trivial than anything else, you can operate this camera without a battery. More importantly, the body is metal, really takes a beating and with no electronics is not allergic to heat or cold.

As said above, the optics, film and the photographer are more important than the camera body, but if you use SMC Pentax lenses with this (discontinued) body and are willing to take a class and read some books about photography, I’d highly recommend the K-1000. I’d also recommend beginning with a long internship in B&W.

One caveat: when shooting fast-moving action with the K-1000, you have to be very good, very lucky or both because you’re only going to get one shot.

17

The best and worst cameras in the world are exactly equivalent as photo-taking equipment when they’re stuck in a closet somewhere. In other words, if you don’t end up using them, it doesn’t matter what you buy. If you’re really committed to using a camera that will force you to make every decision and manually set exposure, aperture, and focus on every shot because you’re fascinated by the process, by all means go ahead with an older, fully manual camera. Most people, however, are at least somewhat susceptible to the frustration that arises from getting mediocre-to-poor results at least some of the time during the learning process, and from missing shots because they didn’t/couldn’t get everything set right before the subject moved or changed. Taking lots of pictures is the key to learning to take good pictures with any regularity, and most people are more likely to do that with at least some help from automation at times.

When we were expecting our first kid, we decided to buy a new camera. I wanted something that could be as simple to use as a point-and-shoot so that either my wife or I could use it for pix of the kid, but I also wanted to be able to learn and experiment with exposure and aperture settings under manual control. We ended up with a Minolta Maxxum 450si, mainly because it was the best value in our price range that offered fully automatic or fully manual operation, as well as everything in between (five different program modes, plus exposure priority and aperture priority). It’s served its purpose admirably, and we’ve shot hundreds of rolls in the last five years. My only regret about buying the Minolta is that it’s nearly impossible to rent lenses for it; I can’t justify the expense of an AF f/2.8 300mm APO (about $4000), but there’ve been times when I’d have been willing to spend what I’d need to (less than $100) in order to rent one for a weekend or a few days. Almost no one rents Minolta gear, however. A Canon or Nikon would have been a better choice in that respect.

My first 35mm SLR was the ubiquitous Pentax K-1000, and I was quite content with it for the couple of years I had it before having to hock it to buy groceries in my early grad-school dropout days. Besides the advantages of durability and completely manual operation, it was a favorite recommendation of photo instructors for their students because it sported excellent optics for such an inexpensive camera.

I’m probably getting infamous for this, but in any camera advice thread, I always point people to Philip Greenspun’s fabulous Photo.net site, which has tons of useful advice for everyone from the rankest beginner to the most advanced professional. In particular, the “What Camera Should I Buy” page is invaluable.

18

If you are going to start a major collection:

Check around for what product line you like -

Nikon, Minolta, Cannon are the most common (i.e. have tons of glass available). Basically, you are choosing your lens mount at this point.

For me, autofocus is non-negotiable - the Maxxum was the first effective a/f body, so that’s what I’ve got.

There are lots of older bodies to accept any given line of lenses - you can always upgrade bodies relatively painlessly - just make sure you won’t out-grow the glass.

Recap:

The body must have:

Flash shoe
tripod mount
cable release

Eventually, you’ll want more lenses:

wide angle

at least 200mm telephoto

macro (everybody loves macro)

Cannon/Maxxum (Dynax in Europe)/Nikon all have a variety of these.

If you foresee wanting a truely unusual lens (1000mm? Cannon makes one) (Macro zoom? Maxxum), find out if such a lens is made.

Newer bodies have some neat bells & whistles (flash on second curtain, built-in auto-metered fill flash, predictive a/f) but, unless you see an immediate need, don’t pay the premium price.

Also avoid power zoom lenses, but that’s more of a pet peeve of mine.

Recommendation: find a body that’s about 3-5 years old, with a twenty-something-to-80-something zoom that CAN do auto-everything, but can be put in semi-manual or full-manual mode - there’s nothing wrong with using the same gear to do snapshots and real photos.

I generally shoot aperature-priority - I know what depth of field I want, and let it figure out shutter speed. (When in low-light, use ap. priority, just set the ap. wide open).

Good Luck!

(p.s. - I love photo.net, too)

19

YAY !!! Oooh, I’m glad I tossed out the Pentax K-1000. LOOK at alla the fans. We ought to have a shoot-out. Best shot taken with that old dinosaur…

It’s developing an “eye” that is equipment-irrelevant. Only time and experiences will allow you to develop your own style. I agree with the poster way back up there. Take a basic class. Learn the gear intimately, so you command it instead of the other way around. Shoot, shoot, shoot. Always have a camera with you, loaded and ready.

Nice thoughts, HappyHeathen !!

20

NoClueBoy, your post reminded me of something I did as a kid, or early teen I think. The Philadelphia Museum of Art held a long exhibition. They offered free pinhole cameras made of cardboard, to anyone who wanted one.

Then, they had you return the camera and they developed the film inside. There was a show. Oh man, I will NEVER forget that project. What a splendid reminder that it is all about composing a subject, and not about fancypants hardware. The Philadelphia Museum Of Art Pinhole Project is mentioned in about paragraph 5 of this cite.