PeeQue:
Thanks for restating my posts; it seems much of what I said had gotten erased in the board change-over.
WallyM7:
He is limiting his own power in order to grant us free will. He is certainly capable of controlling people if he so desired, but he doesn’t want an Earth populated by robots…he wants independently-thinking beings.
Or that your case is not unassailable. Smugness doesn’t look good on a debates board, Wally.
Chaim Mattis Keller
Your welcome, cmkeller - I’m just glad that you didn’t say I had it all wrong.
PeeQueue
If God can see into the future and see what we “chose” in the past, then those choices have already been made. The whole “time line” has been set. In this scenario, if we do indeed have free will, our choices are not made from moment to moment. They were all made at the time of the creation of the universe, thus giving us no moment to moment free will.
If one can see into the future with absolute certainty, then the future already exists (think four dimensions). If the future already exists, then our choices have already been made.
For example… I was for some reason compelled to write this post. I didn’t want to, but for some reason I just had to. 
I don’t think you’re looking at it the right way. When you say,“those choices have already been made” what do you mean? They have not been already made from our point of view, since we are stuck moving through time. Someone who doesn’t haven’t that limitation can see what our choices are, but I’m not sure what the concept of something already being done would mean to that being. There is no concept of before and after for that being.
I’m not saying I believe any of this, but I do think that this standpoint is defendable, if you’re willing to grant that there is a God and that He has these abilities.
PeeQueue
“They have not been already made from our point of view…” Exactly… that’s why we would only have the illusion of free will. Focus on the “our point of view” part.
What I mean by “those choices have already been made” is this… Since there is no concept of before and after for an omnicient being, our actions on a “time line” don’t happen, they just are (that is… they just exist). If this is true, then the choices we make in life were already on the “time line” when it was created. So, if we do indeed have free will, we made all of our choices at the moment of creation. Remember… our choices don’t occur… they just are (in this scenario).
Zev: The problem with your scenario is that a time traveller doesn’t have the the ability of creation that God has. Personally, I liked the restaurant analogy from the other thread.
If a restaurant owner knows what a person will choose from either of two menus and then chooses which menu to present than the owner has made the de facto choice for the person.
I.e. if Menu #1 has choice A - hot dog and choice B - hamburger, Menu #2 has choice A - pizza and choice B - rice, then if person X always chooses “hot dog” or “rice” then what they have for lunch is entirely dependent on which menu is presented which is solely in the power of the restaurant owner.
How does this relate to God?
translated
Answer: If God created this universe, I think it is safe to assume that He could have built a different universe. If not than God lacks omnipotence, which removes the critical
creation ability" like the time traveller and then allows free will, but it does raise some problems for Christian theology.
Answer: Supposedly, yes.
So, if God created this universe knowing everything that would transpire in it, then he presented the menu of His choice. Since we can only choose from the menu and His omniscience tells us that He knows what we will pick from the menu we have a violation of free will.
3a) So, what if God is omniscient but chooses not to use it?
Answer: If somebody puts $1,000,000 in a bank account and tells me I can have it if I want it, but I choose not to take it am I a millionaire? If I don’t take it isn’t like I can go and buy a $50,000 Lexus SUV or anything, right?
So, this allows for the possibility that God has “limited” omniscience. But then this raises the question what does God know and not know (by choice) which leads to a problem with Christian theology (issues with “God’s Plan”, etc).
cmkeller, I said:
Every debater wants to present an unassailable case. I have admitted that I have been unable to do so.
It was not my intention to give the appearance of smugness. Perhaps I should not have put it so clumsily.
In any case, I have nothing more to contribute.
Please continue with your dicussion.
Steve-o:
I agree with what you’re saying, but just because our actions “just are” doesn’t neccesarily mean we didn’t freely choose them. In this scenario, not only are all choices made at the moment of creation, but we are now at the moment of creation. But again, the idea of a moment of creation may not mean much to a being who doesn’t exist in time.
Glitch:
It seems that the Jewish standpoint is closest to 3a. I agree that it probably leads to problems with respect to Christian theology, which is why I would like to know what the “official” Christian view of this is, if there is one. Do you know if there is?
PeeQueue
I have resisted weighing in on this topic, since I felt that my points were pretty well made on the previous threads. But what the hell – it’s not as if I have free will in the matter.
1) An omniscient being does not possess free will
Consider an ordinary person who happens to view time in the extra-dimensional manner that cmkeller and others have suggested. That person has prior knowledge of his own actions. That person can make no action that contradicts their foreknowledge or else that foreknowledge is not perfect (they are not omniscient).
2) A being may possess omniscience of an external environment without consequences to either his own free will or the free will of those in said environment
Assume that I have perfect knowledge of everything that did/is/ever will happen in an alternative universe. I have no way to affect said universe. I do not possess omniscience in regard of my own universe. There are no consequences to my own free will, since I have no special knowledge in this world. I have no means of ever intruding my knowledge into the alternate world; therefore that knowledge can have no possible affect on the inhabitants of that world. The fact that I, operating in a different spacetime, know all events in their spacetime has no consequences on their free will.
It is not correct to speak of foreknowledge in this case, because my spacetime is fully distinct from theirs. It is no more correct to say that I know their actions before they make them than it is to say that I know all of their choices after they make them. I have no projection into their time.
3) A being with omniscience in respect to an external environment may not act in that environment without consequences to free will.
a: Free will of the omniscient being.
I have full knowledge of Bizarro world. I have the ability to act in Bizarro world. In the instant I achieve my omniscience of Bizarro world, I lose all free will with respect to my actions in Bizarro world. In this case, it is the causality of my own spacetime that is the restrictive element. When I achieve omniscience, I know for a fact what actions I will take with respect to Bizarro world. I have no ability to change the decisions that lead/led to those actions. I have no free will with respect to those actions.
An interesting corollary to this is that those actions that I take in Bizarro world are necessarily devoid of intent. The ability to express intent through action is dependent upon the ability to choose between courses. I have no ability to not act as my omniscience tells me I have/will. Therefore those actions are devoid of intent on my part.
b: free will of the Bizarro folk
The omniscient being has acted within Bizarro world. If that action is devoid of informational content, then the free will of the Bizarros is not affected. This reduces to the case in which an omniscient being cannot act in Bizarro world, since no information about the omniscience or the events of Bizarro spacetime has entered the Bizarro world.
If the actions have informational content, then free will no longer exists for any choice that might affect the outcome of events for which knowledge has been introduced in Bizarro spacetime. No choice is available to any being which would contradict the knowledge that now exists within the Bizarro universe. Whether the beings in question are aware of the information is irrelevant – the knowledge has been introduced into Bizarro spacetime and all “future” events in that spacetime are now constrained to follow the course of the omniscient knowledge.
4) The omniscience has the ability to fully alter the course of the universe of which he has knowledge
In this case, I can not only know all events of Bizarro world, but I can choose whether to act or not to act. I maintain my free will with respect to Bizarro world. The Bizarros have no free will. Consider this chain of events (seen in my spacetime).
I have full knowledge of Bizarro world.
I choose to act in Bizarro world.
The history of Bizarro world is changed by my action. The “omniscience” I possessed before acting is no longer valid; things have changed.
I now possess full knowledge of the changed Bizarro world.
I necessarily have the ability to alter my actions again, since I have just demonstrated that the entire history of Bizarro world is malleable to my actions.
I am now infinitely able to adjust my actions in Bizarro world. After every choice, I will have perfect knowledge of the consequences of my action. I can change those actions if I so wish.
The full course of Bizarro history, down to the most minute detail, is now entirely dependent upon my choice of actions.
The inhabitants of Bizarro world have no free will – the course of their lives is entirely dependent upon my choices.
Even if I choose never to act – returning the Bizarro universe to the state that it would have had if I had no ability to affect its history – the Bizarros have no free will. My choice has fully defined the scope of their existence.
PQ: Nope, I have no idea if there is an official position. I am just a godless, heathen dog afterall. I think it is something like “You need faith.” But I have never been able to figure out what exactly that means. 
That’s an interesting take on free will, Spiritus. I think it changes the debate from do we have free will to what is free will.
If I change something in Bizarro world, I don’t know how the Bizarros will react. As stated, I won’t know what they do about my interference until after I’m done interfering. Why is this? Certainly if they had no free will I would know beforehand what they would do, just as I know what my calculator will tell me if indeed I decide to type 5 + 3 =. What would you call the quality that they do have then? Unpredictability? Isn’t this then just a debate on semantics?
Suppose I am a master psychiatrist and am given an infant. I know all the tricks into manipulating this child into whatever sort of human being I want. Have I removed the childs free will? Maybe… But if I stopped manipulating it, would its free will come back?
PeeQueue
Hehehe, me too Glitch, but I would have left out the dog part
PeeQueue
PQ:
I think you missed a step in my discussion. I purposely limited the definition of omniscience to agree with the view of an “extra-dimensional awareness” in which all of Bizzaro wolrd’s history is experienced at once. This does not, as you picked up on, imply that I (in my own spacetime) will know the full effects of my actions in Bizarro world before acting. However, I will know in the instant of action every proximate, secondary, tertiary . . . ultimate consequence of my action. If I do not like them, I can change my action. Remember – I have already changed teh complete history of Bizarro world from my original “pristine” omniscient view by my choice (and power) to act within Bizzaro spacetime. Therefore, if I have the power to act in Bizzaro world more than once (that is, I have the poer to affect Bizzaro world and free will in determining my actions w/respect to Bizzaro world) then I have the power to shape Bizzaro universe through my choices. Strictly speaking, I can shape only those decisions which any possible action of mine in Bizzaro world may effect. However, given that I am (in this particular model – I discussed several) able to act at ay point in Bizzaro history and instantaneously know every repercussion of my action, this restriction rules out little in the way of Bizzaro choice. Whether I act or not is unimportant, since in either case Bizzaro history and Bizzaro decisions are exactly those which I have allowed to exist. The will is mine, not theirs.
I got ya. Maybe the point is moot though. You can look at it two ways:
OR
Which is it? You contend it is 2), and I am not in a position to disagree with you. But I can’t see how I can fault those who are religious and believe beforehand that there is free will with saying that it is really 1).
Either way, however, Christians are left with a problem, since in this scenario God is not omniscient in the true sense of the word. I don’t see this whole outside of time thing written anywhere in the Bible in any case.
PeeQueue
Exactly. The “outside of time” thing is, IMO, akin to ether. It explains everything that needs to be explained with any means to understand it in the slightest. It is also in that sense akin to “Thor being the cause of lightning and thunder” in the days before we understood lightning and thunder. It is a great explanation that serves the needs of those who need to have an understanding of the non-understandable because it just works. Which is fine, IMO, but then I expect the honest theist to admit that there is a reasonable problem with the notion of God & free will. This is not something many theists are willing to admit to… and again, IMO, it hurts their credibility to try to pass off ether/Thor as being a completely reasonable solution. But, c’est la vie.
You are correct that I am tring to use a definition of omniscience which is more limited than what many religious folk envision when they use the word, but it is (as I see it) all that is implied by the “extra-dimensional awareness” that some people have postulated.
As to your two cases. The Bizarros may well feel that they have free will to determine their lives, but the final decision is not theirs. They outcome of their choices is allowed to remain only if it pleases me. Should I dislike the shape of their universe, I have the ability to change it. Even should I choose to leave things alone – the ultimate choice is always mine. The little Bizarro creatures dance their lives to my tune.
Well, I think we’re in agreement for the most part. At least the Jewish religion has given what they believe is there answer to this paradox, even if it still has problems (mainly the one you bring up Spiritus). I am still waiting to hear if the Christians have any “official” policy on this very basic question. Or is it the same?
PeeQueue
In catholic school when the question of the contradictory nature of God’s omnipotence and man’s free will came up, I’m pretty sure they told us that they co-existed despite their mutual exclusiveness, but the manner in which they did so was never explained past the “it’s a mystery” cop-out. Personally I don’t believe in free will whether God exists or not. Everything in the universe seems to run on the principal of cause and effect, and I don’t think we are any different than computers, except that we are more complicated. All of our actions are determined by our past experiences and the way our brains just naturally grew. At any given time, there are so many given sources of input to our “processers” that our actions are not predictable in any human way, but theoretically a sophisticated enough computer that knows everything about a person’s mind could predict how they would react to any given situation. The only truly random events in nature occur on a sub-atomic level, and I don’t see how that could influence our decision making process, and even if it did, our decisions would be under the decision of random chance.
Well, I didn’t really intend for this thread to discuss whether free will exists or not, because it doesn’t seem to me an answerable question. But since you brought it up…
Do you believe in punishing people for their crimes? If so, why? They had no choice (as you believe).
Alternatively, do you believe in rewarding those who do good? If so, why? They had no choice (as you believe).
PeeQueue
Of course I believe in punishing people for their crimes, etc. Naturally I also believe that I feel this way because I have to, based on the input I have received throughout my life. Logically, God Himself can’t have free will, either. If He is omniscient, He knows everything that will happen in the future, so in effect it has already happened. He is forced to follow His own divine plan, because He already knows that He will.