I suspect that this will not be the first thread on this topic, but I could not find a historical thread on the message board. I recently posed the following question to Cecil:
“I get twisted up in the logic regarding the concept of free will. If there is a God of the omni-predicates, then it stands to reason that He (for the sake of familiar reference) is well aware of what choices we will make, even before we have made them, yes? Then whence then free will?”
Helpful SD staff member CK Dexter replied:
“The argument usually goes that just because God knows our choice, doesn’t mean we can’t make the choice. By analogy: imagine that you offer both a candy and a lump of coal to a child. You (pretty much) know that the child will
take the candy, not the coal.”
I agree with the supposition that we could probably guess the choice that a child would make, given such conditions. But in reality there are an infinite number of options that the child can take - the cookie, the coal, neither, a more interesting grasshopper hopping by, s/he could sprint away screaming, and an infinite number of other things. As a parent, we are only aware of the obvious and/or controlled n-number of options presented to the child, and we have a high certainty (maybe even 99.9%) of what the child will choose. God, on the other hand, would not only be aware of the entirety of infinite options, but would be 100% certain of which option the child would take. So if He is 100% aware of all possible options AND which option will be chosen, I’d argue that free will doesn’t exist.
Acceptance of true free will argues against the existence of an omnicient God, though philosophers and theologians have turned themselves inside out for millenia to “prove” otherwise. Recently I’ve encountered philosophers who claim that, even without a God, free will is impossible, but I strive to act in as random a manner as I can–well, “strive” requires intent and if I’m not making an effort to do something specific I tend to act in a manner that surprises even me.
I’m not the only person disappointed he’s not going to get a free Nintendo WIII, am I?
It is not our intellect that God desires as our heart. Our free will has nothing to do with logic or intellect.
We have many emotional options of how to respond, love, submission, awe, sadness, disgust, contempt, aggressiveness and many more.
It is the emotion we chose that is our only free will.
And only Love is God
So if we don’t chose Love, we rightfully incur the karmic consequences of that, if we chose Love God will shield us from that and if needed incur any karmic penalty for us.
I never related to pre-destination claims. Just because God knows what I will do, doesn’t deny that I possess an independent decision making process.
My independent decision making process may in fact be a delusion, but that’s a separate argument. I’m not exactly claiming free will here, only refuting an argument that I’ve never found persuasive. One agent can understand another agent without exerting influence over him. Those are 2 separate processes.
I don’t choose my feelings any more than I choose my thoughts.
I’m tempted to say I can choose how I react to my feelings. But I don’t actually believe this. My actions are triggered by thoughts, which–just like feelings–I have no conscious control over. Truth me told, I don’t know why I do the things I do. And I’m fine with this.
Though, it occurs to me… if free will means the ability to make one choice over another, and if God knows in advance what you will do, and presumably has known for all eternity, do you really have the ability to make a different choice?
That’s the concept that I was trying to convey, NM. If every possible choice is known, then it really doesn’t matter which one you make as there is none that you can make that would “surprise” an all-knowing being. In my mind, that nullifies free will.
Really. God let’s us do whatever we want, and He knows what we’ll do. How does that affect our free will? We don’t know the future, so why would we care if he knows? That’s like saying if someone has already seen the game, but won’t tell you what happened, you don’t want to watch it. What? As long as it’s new to you, why would you care what God knows?
There is at least the abstract possibility of a multiverse, where we make all the possible decisions. You have a cup of coffee. You have a cup of tea. You have orange juice. You have a nice tall glass of iced human blood…
Obviously, universes similar to that last one will be much more rare than the other kinds of universes. But they would exist.
God, on Judgement Day, might examine the entire vast envelope of all these choices, and weigh the worth of your soul on the basis of the proportion of good outcomes.
Sure, it’s absurdly strained, but it does preserve both free will and omniscience.
What I don’t understand is why Christians think it’s so important that God know everything. Isn’t a God that knows a googolplex times more than the smartest human being impressive enough?
If God was described as having almost perfect wisdom, except that the future is as unclear to him as it is to us, would this make him unworthy of worship? Seems like you could easily avoid the free will paradox just by allowing that there are some things God just doesn’t know. Maybe he can predict with 99.99% confidence, 99.99% of the time. But 0.01% of the time, there are pivotal moments in an individual’s life that simply defy prediction, even for a supernatural entity. Maybe these are the kind of moments that get God out of bed in the morning. Otherwise, he’s gotta be bored out of his freakin’ mind.
Anyway, I’d like to know where in the bible does says that God knows everything. Seems to me that the bible shows plenty examples of God not knowing what he’s doing and just making shit up as he goes along. The whole “let’s make Eve out of Adam’s rib” thing is nothing but haphazard jerry-rigging, if you ask me.
There is absolutely a ton of reading material on this, and I highly recommend David Lewis’ arguments for compatibilism as a starting point, and also Peter van Inwagen for basic down to earth discussion.
Incompatibilism seems so obvious, yet no sound argument has yet been given to prove it.
It doesn’t. God knows what you will do because God can see the future. You do what you do because you have free will not because God is making you fulfill the future.