On Feminism

[LinusK]

@Blaster_Master

I have many of my own issues with feminism, particularly the fringe members of the movement, but I think it’s a specious argument to paint such a large movement in such broad strokes.

I only link to what actual feminists are actually doing. If the slutwalkers and claims that maleness is a genetic defect reflect the views of extremists, then “mainstream” feminists would denounce them. That’s doesn’t happens though. In the last thread, feminists said maleness was in fact a defect. (Albeit, a common one.) (I’ll be expecting my Social Security disability check anytime now.)

Frankly, yes, some, perhaps even many, feminists take offense at stupid things. But it’s naive to say that, because discrimination against women is disappearing, that there aren’t still legitimate points of discrimination to be brought up.

Like what?

There’s a lot of issues with education, and frankly, I think it’s silly to make education an issue of gender politics because these issues affect both genders. Part of the reason that women are getting more college degrees is because of the types of jobs men and women are pushed towards. Men still disproportionately do dangerous jobs, blue collar work, physical labor, and many of those just don’t require degrees. At the same time, women are much less likely to pursue STEM jobs and instead are likely to pursue jobs like education and child care, etc. I think both men and women would be better off if we could reduce gender disparity across all of these jobs. If there were more women in STEM jobs and more men in education, maybe some of these issues facing men and women would improve.

There are a lot of issues with education.

One of them is a lack of men in kindergarten through elementary school. Boys at that age - particularly those without fathers - need male role models. And they need people who understand what it’s like to be a boy.

There’s a study - which I’ll post for you if you want to see it - that says that boys are down-graded at young ages relative to the understanding as measured by objective tests. The author hypothesizes - and these are my words, not his - that the boys are too boyish. They don’t sit still like girls. They talk too much. They want to be active, instead of passive. Somebody somewhere needs to realize that sitting at a desk all day is not optimal for educating boys. Fuck. It’s not even that good for girls.

As far as STEM goes, I find it odd that men are falling behind in every area but one - and that’s the one feminists are concerned about.

My own opinion is that there’s no “need” for women in STEM fields. If they want to pursue those subjects, great. If not, there’s no need to force them into it. Personally, I’ve always been better at verbal than math. Trying to force myself into something I’m not good at, and not interested in, would be kind of pointless.

This is a big issue, but again, I don’t see this as a particularly gendered issue. Violence in relationships hurts EVERYONE. Women are, in general, at greater risk of very real danger, men are much less likely to report it or be believed. Hell, speaking as someone who was IN an abusive relationship where my girlfriend hit me and I didn’t even really realize just how fucked up that was until after the relationship ended, I don’t see this as a gendered issue precisely because we need to encourage anyone in an abusive relationship, men or women, to seek help, get more people taking these reports seriously.

What you should understand is the driving force behind bias against men in domestic violence is feminism. Again, I can go into it in more detail, if you want. What feminists want people do believe is that domestic violence is always - or almost always - a male on female phenomenon. Despite the fact it’s not true. Google “Duluth Model” if you’re curious.

And, frankly, divorce law needs updating, in general because many of those laws are holdovers from decades ago when family dynamics, and marriages themselves were different. And these issues affect both genders equally because those kids being screwed are both boys and girls, and both genders benefit from having both parents actively participating in raising them. That is, it’s not a men’s or women’s issue, it’s an issue about children and mental health growing up.

I’m in total agreement.

NOW, on the other hand, is not.

Other than perhaps the most obnoxiously extreme feminist would say that manhood should be abolished. That is the phrase that I think detracts from any legitimate criticism of feminism.

It’d be nice if feminists said that. But they don’t.

Again, violence in relationships hurts everyone, it’s not a women’s or men’s issue, and pointing out a case like this, there’s probably a dozen others of men who did similar stuff to their girlfriends. But regardless, I still don’t see it as a gender issue and something that men and women should, ironically, be fighting over whose situation is worse. Yeah, I’ve been there and it sucked for me. Also, despite the fact that I’m one of the least aggressive people you might ever meet, because I’m big and muscular, some women who’ve been abused are just implicitly intimidated by my presence, and that hurts me too. And, perhaps worse of all, are how violence in the home that’s witnessed by kids or even happens to kids affects their state. There’s no winners in violence in relationships, just losers, and focusing on solving men hitting women or vice versa doesn’t help.

I’m in total agreement.

There is something you should take into consideration though. You may never have called the cops when your SO hit you, but if you had, there’s a decent chance the police would have taken you to jail. (Duluth Model.) Hopefully the next time a woman hits you is also the last time you’re ever around her.

By the way, you were right not to call the police. Getting arrested for domestic violence is far worse than getting hit by a woman.

Gender politics might be part of the reason that people are opting out of long term relationships, but I seriously it’s the driving cause. Marriage just isn’t what it used to be. Relationships in general aren’t what they used to be. Part of this, I think, is a good thing, in the sense that it shows that men and women are meeting on more equal grounds. In the past, a lot of women weren’t able to support themselves and to a certain degree needed to marry to survive. Men had an advantage in this regard so they had no disincentive not to marry. Now it’s more of a negotiation and, so, it’s going to lead to fewer long term relationships as a result.

Perhaps. The downside is fewer children with committed parents.

That’s not to say there aren’t issues with this, particularly when it comes to raising children. I also think our current more casual attitude towards relationships makes it easier for a lot of people to just give up rather than put in some hard work to mend things, aside from the affect on kids, causes some economic issues between legal battles, cohabitation, health costs, emotional/mental issues, whatever.

Regardless though, the whole idea of relationships are changing now and, again, it’s not a gendered issue because it takes BOTH genders to make one work for a heterosexual couple–and obviously it doesn’t make any sense to blame a gender not even in the relationship for a homosexual one–and when it doesn’t work, both parties suffer.

I agree, with one very specific and important caveat. Women are attracted to the masculine in men. Emasculating men creates dead bedrooms, and ultimately leads to divorce. Feminists may or may not know that, when the call for “reeducating men” or when they endlessly browbeat men for being men, but that is the consequence, nonetheless.

All in all, I think my point is that men and women should be allies on pretty much any issue that affects one gender or the other disproportionately because, besides the fact that it’s just the moral thing to do, there’s usually other complications or hidden costs involved that hurt the other gender. I’d really like to see all this feminism vs MRA stuff just… stop.

You’re right: men and women are complimentary. What hurts one gender always winds up hurting the other.

But feminism has been bashing and undermining men for 50+ years. They’re not going to stop. They’ll stop only when they are stopped.