On Feminism

No, LinusK, you’re wrong. I’ve pointed out already in this thread, and in the previous one, and I think in the one before it, of a thread you created asking people to define their feminism.

And people DID. We defined it, we told you what we believed in, we told you our views. Then you turn around and start these kinds of threads.

So no, don’t tell us that you haven’t read “this is what I believe”. Unless you have purposefully decided NOt to read it, it has been given to you, over and over and all across the board.

What does feminism mean to you?, started by LinusK.

As just pointed out by KarlGrenze, starting with your own thread What does feminism mean to you?, started by LinusK we have told you specifically what we believe. Repeatedly. Over and over again. Ad nauseum. Perhaps a re-read would be in order.

We have condemned extremist views. Repeatedly. Over and over. Using our own words. Using cites. Debunking your cites. Again and again and again and again. Are you familiar with Sartre?

Just a few posts ago Miller reminded Jack about the core truth of “equality”. It doesn’t connote “superiority” or mean “alone”. It takes another group or party to be equal with. Another concept you may want to look at.

I see no way we are going to move forward. Your posts have circled back to where they started weeks ago. Truthfully, they’ve never left where they started.

My suggestion would be to close the thread and come back when you have something to new to discuss.

You give me no other option but to conclude that you purposefully avoid reading and considering any and all information that contradicts your firmly set convictions. I don’t know if it’s pathological or deliberate. Either way, the result is not so much a debate or conversation as much as your own personal witnessing platform. That being the case, what are you getting from posting here instead of simply creating your own blog?

Never has so much been said by so few to convey so little.

LinusK, how do you think we can get men more equally involved in childcare?

I just had a conversation yesterday with a colleague. She asked me to arrange a business visitor during the time her mother is in town, because otherwise she can’t go out to dinner with the visitor. I am confused, because she has a husband. She said her husband could (would) not care for the two kids (~5 and 8, so not infants) alone in the evening. He spends so little time with the kids that the younger one is uncomfortable with him and when my colleague travels for work, a babysitter comes and stays overnight. She makes six figures and works a demanding job. There are lots and lots of these discussions among mothers.

Why would she want to have kids with a guy who don’t want to see his own kids? Sounds like she chose the wrong guy to start a family with. That sucks for her, but her partner choice is not a collective societal issue.

She might have asked the appointment be changed to accomodate any number of perfectly reasonable situations: sick parent, PTA meeting, dentist appointment, another meeting, whatever…

What impact does this have on society except that a business related scheduling change is being requested/accomodated?

He pushed her to have kids, claiming that he likes kids and will be an equal parent. Before kids, they shared household responsibilities equally and he showed no sign that he’d slack off on his parenting duties. This seems to be a recurrent theme – guys like the idea of being a dad but when the poopy diapers appear suddenly it becomes “whoa I can’t handle that”.

Are you suggesting that every couple foster some kids first before having their own, just to make sure the guy does actually have what it takes to be an equal parent? It makes good sense, though I don’t know how practical.

Pressured? You make it sound like she has no free will. In any case, people seldom reveal themselves as suddenly completely different people. And they have two kids – if the first didn’t clue her in, well then. And she’s not divorced either. This is no different from all other cases of men and women who marry subpar husbands and wives.

I’m suggesting that poor choice of mate is not a problem which should be fixed by society.

So is it a collective social issue when 85% of custodial parents are mothers, or is it simply a matter of partner choice?
Is it a collective social issue when fathers are not equally involved in childcare as mothers, or is it simply a matter of partner choice?
Is it a collective social issue when there is domestic violence, or is it simply a matter of partner choice?

Yes. And those answers were all over the place - meaning they were contradictory.

If feminism is whatever anybody thinks it is, without reference to the words and actions of its leaders and founders, it’s at least self-contradictory, if not meaningless.

Feminism does have an answer for men’s problems: I bathe in male tears.

You love playing that victim card, don’t you, LK? In fact, your entire deck of cards is stacked with them.

Congratulations, you’ve made the first step toward liberation. Second step: stop calling yourself “mainstream”.

Each of those feminists are activists, authors, and leaders within the feminist movement. Each has her own Wikipedia page. Where’s yours?

I don’t accept that your definition of feminism and what falls into the mainstream overrides mine. Why would I? All my experiences with feminism and with feminists tell me that my beliefs fall into the mainstream – only you, and Jack, are telling me that they don’t.

Different variations of “women shall have the same opportunities as men” does not mean contradictory. And I’ll point out that every single self-identifying feminist in that thread typed something along those lines.

ONLY those who do not describe themselves as feminists described feminism in the disparaging terms you now use, or close to it. So save me the complain about contradictory responses.

So yes, the feminists did tell you what feminism was, and what each of their personal core stances were.

Which answers were contradictory? I didn’t see those.

Why do you think I hang out here?

No, that it not feminism’s answer. It is one person’s t-shirt. One shirt didn’t cause an uproar because nobody saw it on national TV. It also is a joke anyway.

You are smart enough to understand all the twisted, unfair “logic” you constantly use, especially when you are called on it over and over.

But you don’t look at the words of its leaders and founder either - you look at only certain leaders and founders, and certain words. You ignore the vast majority, which don’t say what you like.

And all movements have people with contrary opinions and could all be called “self-contradictory.”