On God, His/Her/Its Nonexistence, and Bullshit

Technically, the burden of proof is on the claim that there is a god, but absence of evidence does not necessarily imply evidence of absence. To maintain the assertion that there is no god without confirmation exhibits as much faith as believing in god in the absence of proof. On that note, about a month ago I went to a “forum” (“Bullshit Convention” would be a better term, as I’ll explain in a moment) on the subject of the existence of god. Two cognitive scientists and two physicists each presented their ideas on the subject. The reason it was a Carnival of Bullshit is because the participants on both fields were operating on entirely the wrong level to address the question. You see, god is a social phenomenon. Belief in god comes from participation in ritual, and when I say ritual I’m not just talking about organized prayer services, although that is a part of it. Rituals of all kinds foster belief in god, on both large and small scales, but the essential point is that people feel a sense of community and percieve it as something supernatural.

So, when it comes to the arguments these four otherwise intelligent people put forward, they’re bullshit. Complete and utter bubkis (that’s yiddish for “nothing”). The cognitive scientists will first assume they can reason this out based solely on logic. This is bullshit. Then they will tell you that the only “real” argument against god is the argument from evil (god is all powerful and all good, so evil should not exist). This is more bullshit. Then, they’ll say that a very complicated device called a consistency proof that you need a PhD to understand eliminates said argument. This is jargonized bullshit. The physics professors at least were honest, as the gist of their presentations hovered around, “really, physics says nothing about god.” They still looked very silly trying, but there you are. Honestly, the whole ordeal made my brain hurt.

If you happen to be wandering around a bookstore or library in 20 years, look for my book detailing why there is no god. I should have it sorted by then.

Oh, and just because I, as a thinking person, feel offended by some of the arguments presented in the Bullshit Showcase I went to, I give you now a few of them and why they too are bullshit.

The ontological argument is simple. Basically, it says that because I can concieve of an entity that is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good, that such an entity is SO good it becomes necessarily existing. This is clearly bullshit. The underlying idea is that god is so perfect in every respect that for god to fail at existing would detract from god’s perfection. Well, get this: if god doesn’t exist, god cannot “fail” at anything, because god isn’t there to shake your hand, much less do something as profound as failing to exist. In other words, this argument assumes the existence of god before it even begins, because god has to be there in the first place in order to act to preserve his/her/its own existence. Bullshit, QED.

The moral argument states that without god, there is no reason to abide by any scheme of ethics governing one’s behavior. Be careful, the argument isn’t saying that there aren’t atheistic ethics, only that god is the impetus to be ethical. This is bullshit. Community is the impetus to be ethical. You abide by the standards of your society because you have a sense of community. This is where sociology comes in, because god is a social phenomenon. It was said during that sorry excuse for an intelligent discussion (by one of the cognitive scientists) that the only secular answer to “why be ethical?” is “because otherwise you’ll get in trouble.” Unbeknownst to the speaker, that is exactly what is going on here. Break the norms of expected behavior in any society and there are negative consequences, legal or otherwise. What prevents rampant deviation is that we all internalize the behavior of conforming to society’s norms. Therefore, the moral argument is bullshit.

The design argument is the most bullshitish of all. This one is 10 pounds of bullshit in a 5 pound bag. The design argument says that the universe (or alternately, the human mind) is so complicated, so sensitive to certain initial conditions that it must have been the creation of an intelligent being. Now, obviously if you find a watch on a table you can assume someone made that watch, it didn’t slowly emerge from geological trends. So obviously someone or something made the universe, right? WRONG. This hellacious fallacy is also known as the anthropic principle, which is essentially a comment on how well tailored the universe is towards life as we know it. Yes, it is true that even slight alterations in certain fundamental constants would prevent complex biochemical concoctions or even the formation of fusion-powered stars and their planets. However, if the constants were different, it just means life would take a radically different form, perhaps not even based on matter and energy, and then those creatures would be speculating on how the universe is so uniquely tailored to life as they know it. There is no reason to assume or conclude that this particular configuration of the universe is special in any way. What’s more, simulations like cellular automata prove that ridiculously complicated and ordered systems can arise from randomness governed by simple rules. Thus, the design argument is pure and unadulterated BULLSHIT.

P.S. I wonder if I can get away with saying “bullshit” one more time?

The OP is bullshit. :wink:

(Was there something you wanted to debate, or did you just want to rant?)

I was hoping to start a discussion about the merits and deficits of the various arguments for/against the existence of god, but if no one can disagree with my OP, the mods may feel free to move this to the Pit. :smiley:

I tend to agree. I say God is Dead. But what is the debate?

What do you mean by “technically”? That word seems superfluous.

True, but that does not remove the burden of proof.

I disagree. It’s not a matter of faith; it’s a matter of definition. Yes, if we leave “god” as a nebulous, undefined concept, then one cannot positively assert that god does not exist, because it’s not clear what we’re talking about. If I have no definition for god, and I say god does not exist, I could be wrong because god could be a chair, for example, and chairs exist. Or god could be a banana, and bananas exist. “God does not exist” is incorrect because it’s a meaningless statement without a coherent definition of god, not because it’s a statement of faith. It makes more sense to say “there is no valid evidence for any gods that I have ever heard described.”

Now, if I said something like, “I know there’s no God because I feel it in my heart”, then it would be a statement of faith, but that’s not what we’re talking about.

The existence of God cannot be disproved, and could only be proved if god goes out of his way to make his existence obvious. Since the latter hasn’t happened, where is the debate?

As rants go, i kinda like it. As foundation for a GD, it’s too diffuse. I think it’s the OP’s privilege and duty to narrow it down.

blowero: First, you’re right, the word “technically” is superfluous. I wish to provide evidence of absence only because I want to see the question answered definitively one way or the other. And I was using “faith” there to mean believing anything without having confirmation of it.

Why, rfgdxm, do you believe it is impossible to disprove the existence of god? If you assume that, then yes, there is no debate and we just have to sit around and twiddle our thumbs, waiting for god to show up and say “Here,” or else decide at the end of our lives that we’ve waited long enough to show that there is no god. I prefer to assume that us mere mortals can indeed make some headway on the question of the existence of god.

Hoodoo Ulove is absolutely correct. Therefore, the debate is this: Is it possible to prove or disprove the existence of god? Feel free to bring up any arguments you wish from any discipline in your responses. Now, let me be perfectly clear what I mean by “god”: “god,” for the purposes of this discussion, is an omnipotent, omniscient, all-around perfect being responsible for the creation of the universe. I make no claims as to whether or not said god has a special relationship with the people of the earth, or even knows or cares about us.

But that’s my point: scientifically, you don’t DISprove things. Rather, you start with a hypothesis, amass more and more evidence, and become more and more certain that a given thing exists. If the evidence is inconsistent with the claim, then it simply remains unproven. It is impossible to ever be 100% certain. The reason I object to your use of the word “technically” is because it is NOT a mere technicality. It is in fact the essence of rational thought. The burden of proof MUST be on the person making the claim. If we were to give equal weight to ANY claim, evidence or no, with a 50/50 chance that it is or isn’t true, we would be mired in a hopelessly muddled existence in which billions of outlandish claims would have to be considered true until disproven. It would be utter mental chaos (although some people do seem to like thinking that way.)

Would you mind defining the key terms of your demands? I don’t want to spend two hours typing only to find that by “proof” you meant something that convinces you in particular, or that by “all-around perfect” you mean perfectly evil as well as perfectly good — a contradiction. Do you allow that its omnipotence includes the power to abridge its own omniscience? Would that then mean that it is no longer omniscient and therefore is not the god you’ve defined? By creation do you mean out of nothing? And finally, is the god you define (or fail to define) supernatural, and if so, do you hold that the universe is closed to it, or if not, that it created itself?

Apparently I wasn’t as clear as I had hoped. I’ll answer your questions in the order you asked them: proof is what blowero just defined it to be, perfect means perfectly good, no, see previous, yes, no. Clear? :slight_smile:

And blowero, I am in complete agreement with you. It just so happens that this particular unproven hypothesis intrigues me. I realize that proving a negative is next to impossible. It is my hope that by proving that the universe has X, Y, and Z qualities, hypothesizing the existence of god would cause some kind of contradiction.

And I left off the answer to your very last question, did my hypothetical god create itself? Doesn’t matter. Pick one.

No claim has been made.

Is your claim that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of God? This will pit you against both atheists and believers.

My claim is that it is possible to dis/prove the existence of god. Personally, I think the answer is that there is no god, but I don’t believe I have enough evidence to assert that in a court of my fellow Dopers. But the answer to the question is irrelevant for the discussion I have outlined, what’s relevant is whether or not we can answer the question in the first place.

am not normally in the habit of agreeing with rifts in the space/time continuum, but in this case, I agree with your conclusion. That being said, however, I do not understand why you believe:

You had it right in the first sentence, but not here. Both an atheist, and a theist believes that reality is real, but the theist adds something unnecessary to the bargain, which requires more faith then not believeing in a god. It is they who have an extraordinary claim.

You betcha, boss. :rolleyes:

Scott_plaid, what you have to understand is that both faith in general and belief that god exists are social phenomena. As I said in the OP, rituals typically generate powerful emotional responses in the particpants, who then attribute the cause of those responses to an agency outside themselves, i.e. god. Those who do not believe that god exists do so because they are the minority, which has two subsets:

  1. those who have not experienced the emotional response from participating in the rituals

  2. those who have experienced a positive reaction to participating in a ritual with the trappings of atheism (such as what we would call a “discussion” in which the main speaker presents and supports the no god argument, and the listeners are swept up along with it)

In either case, when someone says to them, “Blah blah blah God blah blah,” their reaction is confusion followed by disagreement. So belief that there is no god has the same social construction as belief that there is a god, ergo they both exhibit the same “faith.”

furt, should I assume you won’t be buying my book? What if I autograph a copy for you? :stuck_out_tongue:

HOW can I disprove the existence of god? Any Deist would consider this absurd.

rfgdxm, it seems you’re begging the question. Why exactly is it that attempting such a proof would be absurd?

Please prove the existence of god. Feel free to attempt such on this board.