You don’t seem to have read the thread, especially the OP. You are not adding any explanation, you are just restating the condition that requires an explanation.
Why does sin require punishment? Who requires there be punishment? Who defines the type of punishment? Who measures the punishment, to assure that it is fair and just and balanced?
If it is God that requires there be punishment, then why did he make us knowing we would fail? He set up the system, knowing we would fail and require to be punished, then proceeded to punish us. What a great guy!
Why does killing Jesus in our place make it fair? Isn’t that like being mad at the kid for breaking the lamp, so kicking the dog? “As long as someone gets punished, we’re all good.”
Why couldn’t God just say “Hey everyone, I know you sinned. I know you’re going to sin. I forgive you. If you repent, I will forgive you. No one needs to be punished. Not even Jesus.” What does Jesus’s punishment gain us?
In response to your question to me: Because the psalmist called the people gods,and sons of god, implies he was not thinking of a creator or an all knowing,loveing,powerful, careing being, but just a person worthy of respect! That is how I see it, since Jesus was also quoted(John 10) as reminding the Pharisees of his time, that their fathers also considered them selves god and sons of God.Different then what people think today.
I believe I am . Youre not accepting my statements
Because you disobey God
God
God
He made us in His image. He made us with Free Will. Free Will means choice. When Satan convinced Eve to eat the apple (which I believe is a metaphor personally) Eve learned of the difference between right and wrong. God knew as our Father, we would make mistakes having that knowledge
Who said it was fair? I dont think I did. In fact, it isnt fair. How many times do we see the innocent pay the price for the guilty? How is that fair?
Because disobeying God has a price. A price established by God. Whether we like that or not doesnt matter. Whether you determine it is fair or not, doesnt matter. It is Gods Word. He sets the rules.
dngnb8, your version of God is more of an evil tyrant than a loving God.
Prior to knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve did not have the moral competance to know what misbehavior was. They were then persuaded by Satan to do something, because they did not understand the ramifications of their actions and did not know what disobediance was. So they learned the difference between right and wrong. Suddenly, they understood, and they were embarrassed and ashamed. Seems to me, that was sufficient punishment - knowing the difference between good and evil is a punishment. Requiring they be tortured and die and sent to hell after they die because they now know the difference is overkill. They now realize what they did was wrong, they are already contrite and already know their lesson. What does punishment do, but satisfy some lust for pain?
Seeing as how God is supposed to be good and loving and just and fair and all that jazz, I would think that if it is just God’s rules, then God should be fair and just and all that jazz. But you are free to define your God as a mean tyrant who kicks the dog when the mailman mangles the mail, because he doesn’t care who is punished as long as someone is.
So if your God told you to kill, skin, and eat your child, would you do it?
I am still not getting the loophole idea.
According to you, God requires a price and a punishment for breaking His rules.
The wages of sin is death, and all humans are born with original sin.
So everyone dies.
Jesus, by contrast was sinless, but he had to die for our sins.
Or, he never died and is still here with us, in our hearts, or whatever.
My question is this: Say Jesus never died for our sins, and we had to pay the price ourselves.
What would be different?
I think the process that we go through by putting love and truth as a priority not only aides us as individuals but society as a whole. We live in a society where lies are to readily accepted and excused and people don’t see the cost of lies and the overall affect on society.
The Bible also says not to follow the traditions and teachings of men.
With all the different religions in the world each claiming scripture , and even Christianity being so fractured among denominations and beliefs, how is one to decide what is truth, and what is just the teachings and tradtions of men?
and some of those will be “believers” who embrace tradition over the truth, who reject science and fact that serves the truth, because it conflicts with tradition.
agreed
You talk of faith. We all operate on some degree of faith. On e question we should be asking is , what is it I have faith in?
IMO it just doesn’t make sense that a divine being would require a physical sacrifice to forgive us of our sins. That is a very key misunderstanding of the teachings of JC. There are lots of beliefs out there. One that makes far more sense to me is the concept that we are all already forgiven. The key is for us to accept that forgiveness, by forgiving ourselves and others and having that reflect in our lives and actions.
OK, so Enoch, Job, Mary, and, Jesus…were all sinless, and thus excluded from the wages of sin, the wrath of God (bad karma, Thor’s hammer, etc. I don’t know how it works for the sinless).
My question is: If Jesus had never suffered and was crucified for the sins of the people,
these, being the people who believe he went through all this, to pay for their sins.
And the price of their sins had to be paid-by the sinners themselves-with out sacrificing Jesus.
How then would things be different?
Other than the above mentioned loss of a fine Easter egg tradition?
This of course is what some humans said God said. So humans like to make up stories. No one can truthfully say God said ,did ,or inspire anything. Just accept the fact that some human said it was so.
According to that interpretation, then why did Jesus have to suffer and die? Because it is a matter of doctrine that Jesus* had to* pay for the sins of the guilty. That is an undeniable tenet of Christianity. Jesus paid the price, and thus “saved” us, if we but choose to be saved. But if we are already saved if we but choose to accept it, then what did Jesus’s sacrifice do? Why couldn’t Jesus have just ascended bodily in front of a crowd of thousands? Why couldn’t he have continued to teach for decades after ~32 AD?
My understanding of the tradition is that if Jesus was not crucified and did not sacrifice himself, then we could not gain forgiveness from God merely by asking, that sinners would still have to go to Hell. Or perhaps give a burnt offering of a lamb or goat or a bull, depending on how bad you sinned. YMMV.
No matter how I approach the tradition of Jesus obtaining God’s forgiveness,
for people’s sins, by acting as middleman between them and God;
it seems inserting a punishment for Jesus into the mix, still puzzles me.
I try to make sense of it, by comparing Jesus to a liaison- between workers and their boss.
Say, Jesus becomes the darling of workers, who are fighting for health care benefits.
Jesus is the son of the boss, who has denied the workers their desired benefit.
In order to bring attention to the boss, that workers are suffering without healthcare, Jesus, martyrs himself, by refusing medical treatment,
and dies, by choice, for lack of it.
The result of the drama, hopefully, is that -it opens the heart of the boss,
who then changes his policy,
and finally decides to give the workers healthcare benefits.
Jesus died to make a real difference in the lives of the workers.
By contrast, In the biblical story, IMO, Jesus dies,
so that the people can gain the forgiveness of God- for simply being undeserving sinners.
Would that not be like the workers gaining only the forgiveness of their boss- for being undeserving?
Who decided they were undeserving of forgiveness in the first place?
More biblical quotes?:smack: