On Jesus - why specifically was suffering and dying required?

[Irishman]

Hey, I didn’t say it made sense. There are lots of things one believes as a child, because adults tell you that is the way it is, and there are plenty of other things that they tell you and they turn out correct.

[florez]

@Irishman

Hey, I didn’t say it made sense. There are lots of things one believes as a child, because adults tell you that is the way it is, and there are plenty of other things that they tell you and they turn out correct.

Thank you for being informational, and you are right about the people who taught me that Jesus had to go through that for IMO some ridiculous reason, they also taught things that made perfect sense.

[Imasquare]

@Maggie_the_Ocelot

forward a couple millenia

God: Shit, this isn’t working for me, I need to do some serious revisions on the rules, and I don’t really want all these little sacrifices. But I already gave My promise and said that I would accept them…it was part of the Covenant, I can’t go back on My word.

Does God make mistakes? If the God of the bible really does exist he is all powerful, and all knowing and so therefore does not make mistakes.

Would God have not already have known from the start that it wouldn’t work, since God is supposed to have all knowledge of everything - past, present and future?

Also, since God is all powerful, and can do literally anything at all, then God can indeed go back on his word. And in fact could even change the past so that he never imposed the sacrifice rule in the first place.

[Imasquare]

@Irishman

My understanding of the tradition is that if Jesus was not crucified and did not sacrifice himself, then we could not gain forgiveness from God merely by asking, that sinners would still have to go to Hell. Or perhaps give a burnt offering of a lamb or goat or a bull, depending on how bad you sinned. YMMV.

But that doesn’t make any sense. Why would God want us to murder an innocent creature to atone for our own wrong doing?

And why would God not be able to forgive our sins if Jesus was not crucified? God can do anything and so can forgive our sins if he wants.

ETA

I see you said yourself that it doesn’t make sense closer to the end.

[Irishman]

Take it up with God. He’s the one that condemned us all because our umpteenth ancestors acquired the ability to understand that disobediance was wrong. He’s apparently the one that made the rule that sacrifice was required for redemption. He’s the one who could have accepted Cain’s sacrifice of grains as being just as good as Abel’s sacrifice of animals, but didn’t.

[cosmosdan]

@Irishman

Take it up with God. He’s the one that condemned us all because our umpteenth ancestors acquired the ability to understand that disobediance was wrong. He’s apparently the one that made the rule that sacrifice was required for redemption. He’s the one who could have accepted Cain’s sacrifice of grains as being just as good as Abel’s sacrifice of animals, but didn’t.

Did he condem us or is that just a claim created and taught by men?
I think it’s the latter.

Jesus paid the price, and thus “saved” us, if we but choose to be saved. But if we are already saved if we but choose to accept it, then what did Jesus’s sacrifice do?

IMO, Jesus lived the principles he taught and showed us that a full committment to those principles meant we didn’t abandon them when it got difficult or even life threatening.
The concept is that as God’s creations we are already forgiven and simply have to realize it. However, realizing it is not just “Ive decided to believe that” but a process of personal transformation, in which we strive not just to act according to those principles, but actually grasp them and becoime them, heart and mind.

It’s east to see in religion that often the principles are quickly , {or weekly} abandoned as people go about their daily lives. Sing prasies on Sunday, but revert to being jealous, dishonest, judgemental, selfish, etc the rest of the time.
What Jesus stressed over and over was that lip service means nothing if we are not truly transformed and that transformation is reflected in our actions , and our interactions.

[Irishman]

@cosmosdan

Did he condem us or is that just a claim created and taught by men?
I think it’s the latter.

I agree, God is just a claim created and taught by men.

IMO, Jesus lived the principles he taught and showed us that a full committment to those principles meant we didn’t abandon them when it got difficult or even life threatening.
[snip]
What Jesus stressed over and over was that lip service means nothing if we are not truly transformed and that transformation is reflected in our actions , and our interactions.

That may be well and good, but it doesn’t address the central Christian claim that “Jesus died for our sins”.

[Imasquare]

@Irishman

Take it up with God. He’s the one that condemned us all because our umpteenth ancestors acquired the ability to understand that disobediance was wrong. He’s apparently the one that made the rule that sacrifice was required for redemption. He’s the one who could have accepted Cain’s sacrifice of grains as being just as good as Abel’s sacrifice of animals, but didn’t.

I would take it up with God but he never answers.

[cosmosdan]

@Irishman

That may be well and good, but it doesn’t address the central Christian claim that “Jesus died for our sins”.

My point being that I think that portion of Christian doctrine is a gross misunderstanding of what Jesus actually taught, and added after the fact.