Hey, the reasons were in my summaries; either the murder was incidental, or Satan is ordering God to do it, Or God thought the torture and sacrifice were awesome, or God’s idea of justice is scapegoat vengeance, or God is just lashing out out of anger. Depending on the model in question.
Actually, I’ve often heard God as being described as being intolerant of sin and uncleanliness to the degree that either it or him can’t be in the room together. This sensitivity would imply that yes, he would in fact gag* while eating you if you were sin-laden at the time. Of course that shouldn’t be a problem just after Yom Kippur, so if God rolls into town that day with an eye out for some yummy nummy human-flesh, that would be a good time for you to make yourself scarce.
Well, either he’d gag or you’d be instantly vaporized; opinions vary. Either way you wouldn’t be much of a meal.
Blaster Master did – “it’s not about torture or bribes, its about purity” – sure as Maggie The Ocelet said the key was sacrificing someone “blameless”, sure as begbert2 addressed the whole ‘perfectly clean’ metaphor before you likewise started talking in terms of “cleanse”.
I thought all of that was pretty much shorthand for the same basic point; if not, let me instead swap in a different term: isn’t the sine qua non of OT animal sacrifice (as often gets mentioned when discussing the NT story at issue) that such an animal had to be “without blemish,” such that Christians claim Jesus qualified by dint of being as pure-slash-blameless-slash-clean-slash-unblemished as – well, any observant Jew cleansed in the immediate wake of a good Yom Kippur?
There is a point that I failed to mention, actually because it’s a hard concept to grasp. God is that person, so God has to step in and fudge because God is the one performing the action. There is no line of division between God and the entity as they are one. There is no individuality. So God as we use that term for the entire collective family is perfect, a individual member is perfect because they are part of the whole and that whole is perfect. A hand on a perfect body may not be seen as acting perfectly, but because it is only acting in part of a much greater picture, it’s role is perfect.
Well there is your answer then. If God was fallible then His plan is imperfect and God is not worth worshiping. If God is infallible then His plan is perfect and creation must also be perfect, so fallibility is actually a illusion that can not logically exist. And since I am expressing a viewpoint that God exists, He must be perfect (or else He is not God), and everything He created also perfect and therefore infallible.
So I state that we all are infallible and there is suffering.
When one is God’s child (attached to the whole) there is nothing to forgive as God’s child is by default sinless. The question is what happens when a child is separated from the whole for a time. This is like a hand that wants to be on its own. So the body cuts it off, the hand suffers and dies and the body suffers, the hand doesn’t like suffering and wants to come back, so it is reanimated and reattached and both the hand and body no longer suffer. On a perfect being was this hand being imperfect?
So I disagree that infallible beings result in no suffering.
This would mean that God’s children would be inherently good on their own, but on their own would be the breakup of the family and they would not need God which would be imperfect.
If Satan in himself were infallible he could exist eternally on his own, which would lead to eternal separation which would be a imperfect plan for a God who ‘desires all to be saved/none to be lost’
The gosples dont go into any attempts to recapture Jesus after He was raised. But the point of this was that Jesus (as God), should be put in prison for the acts He did. And He was and also executed. Our laws do not permit nor have authority as to what happens after death. So what if God goes to heaven after being found guilty in a court of law and executed? God was following our rules and laws and served his sentence to it’s completion. Why should man have a say what happens to someone after death, it is not man’s domain nor does man have much understanding of it to make any such decisions?
There was no reason for God to allow evil unless he either wanted evil to exist(,or loved to see people suffer); since this God, was able to kill many innocent people back in the OT times he could just as well prevented their being born all together. He chose to have the children(who were innocent and also his children) to be killed, according to the OT.
The excuse some give is, that we have free will doesn’t add up;if a person has free will but doesn’t have the same will as your God he kills them! Because Adam and Eve were innocent and didn’t know evil from good,and God allowed Satan to tempt them and he knew they would disobey he punished all their future off spring, even up to now.He picked one group of his children and helped them kill some of his other children.
Either God is not all loving or knowing, and he acts every bit as a cruel monster,or the Bible writer was just trying to scare people, or use God as a scape goat.Actions speak louder than words. It is my belief and can be proved that the Bible or any teachings of God are just the words and works of humans,no one can say’ in truth’ they know anything about God, what god is like,said or did. One just believes the human they wish, that fits their way of thinking or desire!
If one uses that same way to judge a human parent he/she would be put in prison the rest of his/her life
According to the psalmist, all are gods and sons of God. Jesus is quoted as backing this up in John 10;“it says in your law.” I said you are gods, so why do you accuse me of blasphemy because I call God my father, when your fathers did?"Wiether one desires to be God’s child or not ,it would mean all are children of God, the choice was already made!
If God was truly all knowing he could have made it unnecessary to sin in the first place. A human father wouldn’t kill his child because he never met the father, nor would a good Father hide from it’s child then punish it if it didn’t know him or his will!
That doesn’t explain why God didn’t destroy Satan and the other bad angels, make bargains with him,even to killing Job’s Innocent children, to prove a point to Satan. Why God would have to bet with Satan about anything is not sensible.Since Satan was known to be evil, and God allows him to destroy his human children, doesn’t say much for a being that is supposed to be, loving,caring,all powerfu,l and all knowing. All are supposed to be creations of this God and he could just as well have destroyed, or kept the one’s he knew were bad from being born in the first place. According to the OT, God did seal the wombs of some of the Jews enemies wives so they couldn’t reproduce. And why on earth would God Follow our rules, makes no sense to me what ever!
Death is the domain of Satan, not of God, God is a God of the living. We can leave this one as a disagreement of interpretation of the OT. OT scriptures substitute and interchange the name Satan and God so based on the name alone you can’t be sure who is acting. But scriptures can not be broken, and God is always good, so if the act is good that is of God, if the act is evil (such as the destruction of Sodom) that is Satan.
My take on this if someone does not have love they will die (and Satan will take/kill them). If they have love they have God and that leads to life. So free will if used in any way that is not love will lead to death as love is the only way.
My take on this is what we are going through is for the salvation of Satan. Yes it was set up (in a way), but for a purpose, so that none would ever be lost. It is apparent to me that God would rather cause a entire world to suffer for a time so that not one of His children are ever eternally lost then lose one of His children.
Lets just say this is a disagreement of interpretations of the OT also. In the NT, I believe the war and killing is expressed in Eph 6:12, -for our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but powers of darkness here and in heaven (paraphrased).
The loss of Satan from the family would be eternally a hurt for all God’s children, so es right now it sucks donkey balls because we are the ones to get Satan back into the family.
Both, the OT is IMHO written to try to preserve Satan’s power, get people to worship Satan and not to know God. Bad stuff is blamed on God (though it is Satan who does these things), and people worship this evil as God, so they are worshiping Satan, preserving Satan’s power on earth.
The Life of Jesus shows a far different God then the OT describes.
Um OK, I met God, talked with God. The thing is that God is in man and man is a god as he is a child of God. So if man wrote scriptures a god also wrote scriptures. If a man also wrote Happy Potter a god also wrote Harry Potter.
Yes this happened to Jesus though He was allowed some outdoor exercise carrying a big wooden cross on the way to His execution.
Regarding penal substitution, it would be more accurate to say that the theory does not mesh well with the understanding of criminal and civil justice that people are taught in the 21st-century United States of America. If you are born and raised in this society, then the only notion of a legal system that you have is based on strict individual responsibility; if Bob robs a liquor store, then Bob and only Bob should receive the punishment for it. This comes from the fact that the United States of America was founded on a philosophical basis that emphasized individualism above all else. Considered within the context of all human history, the United States is almost unique with respect to taking individualism this far. Many cultures in many times and places have featured an understanding of justice that was much more corporal than individual, and this includes the Roman Empire in which Christianity first emerged.
I’m not trying to argue in favor of the penal substitution theory. Like Skammer, I’m content to acknowledge an element of mystery in Christ’s death and its effects. I’m just trying to suggest that in order to understand things, you have to be aware of the social and cultural context that you come from and the existence of other contexts.
My question (and it wasn’t to you, really) was more fundamental. I hear that salvation is only through Jesus, and that the sacrifice was necessary. I get that an explanation is that God is a putz who likes the divine equivalent of pulling wings off of flies, but that doesn’t seem to work for my Christian friends.
I’ve heard this also. It is amazing how quickly the omnipotence de-omnis when it is convenient, isn’t it?
The reason for without blemish is pretty obvious - if God is the big boss, he demands the good stuff, not the dreck, otherwise you’re treating him like he’s a putz. (And we won’t mention the priests who really got it.) But no animal so sacrificed was perfect in any case.
But my objection holds perfect or not perfect. Why is it necessary? Maybe you aren’t allowed to foist off a crummy sacrifice to God, but surely God can accept a less than perfect one. Omnipotence 101.
Let me restate the argument. I ask why Jews, pagans, those who never heard of Jesus have to go to hell or suffer whatever we suffer as unsaved. I’m told that salvation is only through Jesus. Why? Two answers, it seems. One, which you mention, is that God is a prick and lets people suffer as a matter of taste. That’s logically consistent, though it doesn’t exactly want to make you worship this guy. The other is that God can’t stand sin, or is forced through some law of redemption to do it this way. Now that is a matter of omnipotence.
That’s the sweet Christian version The mean nasty rotten Jewish version says that he understands that we all sin, but if we atone with all our hearts we are okay. The nasty Jewish god killed some people. The sweet Christian God condemns them to suffer for eternity. I’ll take the one I grew up with thanks - assuming that either of them exist, of course, which they don’t.
There are people who have suffered (and do suffer) a lot more than Jesus did, and if a God who knows all things would have his son suffer, because he created beings with flaws, then had his son suffer and die for that reason, he is a cruel Monster; such a being is not worthy of love, or praise.God should be better than a good human father, but by your discription he is not! And being dead for 36 hours is not anywhere near what suffering soldier does for his fellow man and he knows if he dies he will not see his family again, nor they him,if Jesus really Ressurected after a couple of days to me it means nothing. If my son told me he was going to die, but come back in 36 hours I would just say, do you want me to fix you anything to eat then? His mother apparently didn’t believe in the ressurection or she would not have came back to annoint the body,even though Jesus was quoted as saying he would ressurect in 3 days!
Isn’t it a bit strange that nothing was ever mentioned about Jesus and his Mom after the so called ressurection? Of all the people one would think she would be the first to know. and why he turned over his mother to John at the cross to take care of her is another question, if he was coming back in 3 days he could have looked after her himself, and even took her to heaven with him at the Ascension. It still belies the fact, that God could have destroyed Satan who he knew was evil and would destroy a lot of his children…not the actions of a good father.
Jesus has always been. We hear of His death on the cross, but we also hear that He suffered everything man has suffered. We also hear how Jesus lives inside if His believers. We also read that some people see a man suffering stoning to death, but the victim is actually rescued from suffering by the Lord.
My take on this is that the Lord dies for every person - He takes our death as death can’t hold him, and we get eternal life, we exchange places. Jesus takes the final suffering for everyone. While we are lifted out of our bodies Jesus is the one that is killed. My take on this is the suffering we do experience is limited by God to only what is absolutely needed for us to realize that Jesus can take the rest.
So I don’t accept that Jesus only had a short time to suffer, the Jesus I know has suffered throughout human history and continues to this day.
The role of women in scriptures is mostly hidden, thanks to Satan deceiving deceiving Eve and forcing women into a submissive role we don’t hear about it. It is vey interesting that it was all women who came around Jesus after He died. The men deserted him, the women stayed.
Women are not made to be submissive, but a just as important part of creation and have real roles to play in the grand design. We know that Jesus gave out power to raise the dead, I find it likely that though the men’s faith was gone after seeing Jesus die, it was the women’s faith that was strong enough to raise Jesus (as God also lives in women - so it was God who raised Jesus - no contradiction as God is one)
The message to Mary I believe has to do with Jesus’ statement in Matt 12 46-50. Our true membership in the family of God. In this Jesus outright denies that Mary is His mother, Mary may have been Jesus’ biological mother but was John’s spiritual mother, Jesus revealed that to both on the cross.
Happy Easter
I think it’s an example in compassion. Even as he was being killed and hung on the cross, he says “forgive them father for they don’t know what they are doing.”.
If your idea of God is that he knows( and knew) all things before he made them(humans included) and also then, knew Satan would rebel,but let him survive to destroy his other beings(called his children) He is respossible for their being tempted and for evil existing. Not too hard to figure that out as an example if a man makes a product that is defective we don’t blame the product, but hold the maker responsible for the defect. And it is even worse if the maker knew the product had flaws ahead of time!
God is said to creat Satan and humans yet he punished humans more than he did the Monster Satan!
Foe some reason you seem to put Satan’s power above your God’s
