I am fairly shy about Pitting other Dopers so this is going to be fairly gentle. But I have no other place to voice my concerns.
In this thread, Scarface Z wants to know what gun to bring with him when camping/hiking whatever so if he runs across a bear he can shoot it. I don’t know anything about bears. However, is this really necesary?
The cavalier attitude displayed towards bears by that OP really, really bothers me. Here we are, going into their territory, which we’ve already limited, and bringing along a gun to shoot them “just in case”. How are we to know the bear shot by Scarface Z was actually threatening him? And it doesn’t seem to be for hunting - just if the bear bothers him.
Am I overrreacting? I will listen to other Dopers’ on this, but this really icks me out. A lot of Dopers did point out he might be overdoing it. I’m generally against hunting anyway unless you’re actually going to eat the thing or use it in some way. (Mounting it on the wall is not a valid use, IMO.)
Let me preface my reply by making it clear that I am a hunter and have hunted bear.
If Scarface Z is planning on shooting any old bear that he happens to spot, “just in case,” then he’s poaching. I’ve been out in the woods hunting deer and come across bears (all black bears in my case, as I don’t live in Grizzly country) and just sat quietly or made a small noise to spook them off. But I was very uncomfortable doing it the one time it happened while I was bowhunting and didn’t have a firearm on me. Because when you need it, you need it.
My sister would not be on this world (I was already born) if my father had been even a little slower on the draw while out deer hunting one day. A black bear came at him aggressively; he had to shoot it several times with his deer rifle, and it didn’t drop until it was about ten feet from him. This was in the day before bear spray and mace and all that, but I woldn’t be comfortable trusting my life to some aerosol canister.
Yes, I am out in the bear’s habitat voluntarily, but it’s my habitat too. If they don’t bother me, I don’t bother them (unless that’s what I’m hunting) but if they’re threatening me, I’m damn well going to defend myself. And it’s typically pretty clear when a bear is being threatening; just raising up to get a better look at you isn’t necessarily, but charging you certainly is.
I believe a lot of the wildlife up in Canada is larger and more agressive than we have down here. A pissed-off moose will do you in fairly quickly too, so were I in a remote area up there, I’d certainly carry a gun too.
Well, here in California bears have become so thick (and in SoCal their range is so limited) that Fish and Game has to “take” them occasionally as they encroach upon human territory. Part of this is the responsibility of people who leave trash around or food unprotected and thus encourage the bears to rummage through trash rather than forage for natural food, but it’s also a result of restricted predation and an abundant food supply causing the bear population to grow. Hunting, if properly overseen, is a necessary game management tool, as can be testified to by anyone who lives in a state where deer populations have exploded and deer-induced car wrecks have increased.
That said, wild animals, even predators like the big cats or territorial animals like bears will pretty much leave humans alone, especially in groups of four or more, unless unduly enticed. The animals are wild and can be unpredictable, especially if hungry or injured (and thus not able to forage effectively) but for the most part you just don’t need protection from wildlife, certainly not beyond a can of pepper spray. By morbidity and mortality statistics, you should be far more concerned for your safety on the drive to the trailhead than anything attacking you on the trail.
I’m not against owning or carrying firearms. I think the current backlash against legal gun owners is largely unjustified, and while I don’t buy into the “armed society is a polite society” dogma, I do think criminals would (and do) think twice if they think a victim might be armed. I’ve grown up around and using guns and consider them to be just another tool, albeit one to be treated with great respect and care. But the idea that you need to carry one for protection on the trail just isn’t borne out by the data, and someone who is otherwise convinced of that necessity is probably anticipating (dare I say looking for?) an opportunity to use it.
Just MHO.
Me? I carry a trail machete, but that’s just for cutting paths, making kindling, and the occasional amputation after being trapped by a falling boulder. :eek: If I see a bear, I’m just going to tell him his shoes are untied and then clonk him on the head with my walking staff when he bends over.
I carry a 12 ga. short-barrel loaded with slugs when camping or out picking berries, etc. It’s strictly for bear protection. Bears don’t like you near their kills or cubs, although you don’t always know that you are encroaching. Grizzlies just hate everything and are extremely unpredictable. Getting the gun unslung and a round chambered before the bear is on you is quite another thing altogether. The odds aren’t good if he sees you first.
Moose are very territorial, and a buck might charge you if it thinks you are a challenger for his selected mate. (Yeah, they’re not too smart.) They’re probably a bigger threat than grizzlies, all things considered. You’re probably not going to take one down with a pistol, even a .44 Magnum, unless you really know what you’re doing. A longarm, perhaps, but that’s a lot of awkward weight to carry around for something you will most likely not use.
I don’t mean to imply bears aren’t dangerous–they’re big, fast, wild animals that could, if they so desired, knock you down with one swat and procede to tear you limb from limb–but they evolved as onmivores and prey to other, larger, now extinct predators, and so their response is one of defense rather than immediate attack. For a multi-day hiking/canoeing trip away from established campgrounds and with a group of adults, the likelyhood of being seriously threatened by a bear, even the more aggressive grizzly, is so remote as to be considered absurd. It certainly isn’t worth carrying eight pounds or more of weapon for no other purpose than to defend against such an unlikely threat, IMHO.
I camp in bear country quite a lot, as do a lot of my friends. It’s never even occurred to me to carry a gun. I suspect the pittee just likes guns and is looking for an excuse to get one. Then maybe look for an excuse to fire one.
Real camper’s don’t go into the wilderness with plans to blow a little peace of it away.
Huh. I didn’t know that. Granted, the stories I heard growing up most likely shaped my opinion of them, but I have to admit that I’ve never not been able to haze one off without a firearm.
And I don’t carry a weapon hiking, although I am rarely just hiking for hiking’s sake. I’m usually hunting if I’m in the forest, or else packing - and one of us always carries a pistol when horsepacking, but that’s to be able to put your own horse down if there’s a catastrophic wreck, rather than leaving it to suffer.
When you are out in deep, deep woods, a gun is always a good idea. It may be a bear, it may be a hillbilly who thinks you have a purty mouth (note: joke). However, where bears are concerned, if you carry anything other than a .308 or .223, you ought to file the front sight off.
It wasn’t really the carrying of the gun that was bothering me, but the atttitude of the OP that seemed so casual about killing bears. From what I’ve read in this thread, most people would do it if they have to but they are not hunting for trouble. The OP in that other thread seemed to be looking for a chance to kill a bear, and it bothered me.
I am not against gun ownership, either in your home or in the woods or anywhere you please.
A .223 Rem is almost certainly insufficient for bear unless you get really lucky. The .223 doesn’t offer that great of penetration though solid/liquid mediums (even though the sectional density is high enough that it’ll punch through the lower classes of body armor.) In fact, many LE Tactical divisions have started using the .223 Rem instead of 9mm submachineguns because it doesn’t overpenetrate as much. (It normally tumbles after entering the body.)
A .308 Rem is probably marginal against bear. Something either heavier (like a 12 guage magnum slug or the heaviest hard-cast .44 Magnum bullet you can find) or faster (.300 Win Mag, 7mm Rem Mag) is really what you want for good penetration if you decide you need to knock a bear down. They aren’t elephants, but they’re a damn sight bigger than anything else on the continent.
I’d rather carry a Mossburg 935 with 3-1/2" sabot shells, personally.
The Bureau of Spontaneously Made-Up Statistics says that 4 out of 5 hunters agree, and the fifth one was eaten by a really pissed-off, slightly wounded grizzly.
Seriously, while I wouldn’t want to be shot with a .223 (or a .22 LR, for that matter), I’d want something that is guaranteed to penetrate through the thick skull and well-protected torso of a bear. A .223 Rem just ain’t that. You might get lucky, but then the best gamblers make their own luck by selecting the best odds.
In some places, such as Alaska, where there is a real threat from something that a gun can be useful against, I agree. In most other places, I disagree. There are far more useful things that weigh less than a gun that are more likely to aid in your survival.
I’d much rather have two extra days of food than a firearm.
I agree with Stranger. Shot placement is important in a .223 round (provided you’re not hosing things on automatic, which mine doesn’t have anyway.)
If you’re hunting a bear and have time to take careful aim, by all means, try it. But if you’re in a self-defense position against a very large, very angry, very fast animal, I sure wouldn’t bet my life on it.
But I don’t make a hobby of poking grizzlies just to see what they’ll do. I’ll try not to be so paranoid about the black bears, Stranger.
While I do carry the shotgun, as mentioned earlier, a part of it is for two-legged critters. I’ve found that a personal alarm with a pull-lanyard to activate scares off almost anything. And it fits in your shirt pocket. And it won’t take off a toe if you aim it wrong.
The national park where my parents live is loaded with black bears tame enough to be chased from a home with a broom. I regularly spend time there on my parents property, and don’t back heat. My dad does have an air-rifle that he uses to shoot them in the ass, if necessary (it’s doesn’t hurt them - just gives them a start so they take off).
The national park by where I live is crawling with grizzly bears. I don’t bring a rifle with me when I camp, because I don’t know how to use one; however, if a camping partner brought one, and a grizzly showed up looking anything other than totally passive, I’d be glad my partner had it. Around these parts, grizzlys kill a couple of people each year.
FWIW, for a black bear to attack, you kinda have to piss them off - a grizzly will attack and kill for sport.
But as we’ve been discussing, if you don’t have either a really powerful round or very good aim, all you’re gonna do is piss the bear off. I alluded to filing the front sight off of your gun in my first post; that’s part of an old story.
A young city guy shows up for camping in Alaska. The locals ask him what he plans on doing if a bear attacks. He says “Well, I brought my .357 magnum!” One of the guys asks him if he filed the front sight off. The guy says no, why? The local says: “So it hurts less when the bear shoves it up your ass!”
