I’m wondering about the vii chord. It’s not really a minor but it’s not a major either. Let’s take the key of G major. The vii chord is F# A C. Since it’s a key of G chord, doesn’t it HAVE to be called an F# something? Sure, it’s sorta an Am6 or Am add 6 but still… what the heck do you call it? Is it an F#m diminished?
Using this cool chord identifier, the result is A minor 6th. That’s the main result. The other results are detailed and, to me, very interesting. One of those results is F# diminished.
*Edited because I left out the # in the chord name. Thanks Richard_Pearse!
F# diminished. It’s missing the fourth note so technically an F# diminished triad I guess.
I believe 1l2 diminished, or minor 7 flat 5 are the correct terms, I favor the latter as I’m pretty sure at least one doper does as well.
F#ø7 would indicate F# - A - C - E (Half-diminished 7)
F#º7 would indicate F# - A - C - E-flat (Diminished 7, or “Full-diminished”)
As a triad, I suppose, minor flat 5 would be correct, but I don’t think it’s used much except as a 7th.
The cool thing about diminished chords is that there are only three of them.
Moved to CS (from FQ).
Since we’re in G, it’s :
And there are only four augmented chords.
Schoenberg (introducing the major mode and diatonic chords) calls this a diminished triad, as opposed to the other two types, major triads and minor triads. Of course, context is everything, but you say you are in the key of G major, so there you go.
Yes, but the flip side of that is that a diminished seventh chord must belong as vii to at least four minor keys, or it can be a ninth chord with omitted root, and many other interpretations!
OP here. Let’s face it, the vii chord is generally avoided as much as possible. I don’t know how or why an E has been inserted into my F# A C chord. There seems to be agreement on the C being diminished but that A being a minor 3rd above the F# seems to have been ignored.
Okay, triads in G Major -
I G Major,
ii a minor,
iii b minor,
IV C Major,
V D Major,
vi e minor,
vii f# diminished.
In chords I - vi, the interval between the root and the fifth is a perfect fifth, and what distinguishes the chords is whether the third is Major or minor. In the vii, the interval between the root and the fifth is a diminished fifth, and that’s where the triad takes it’s name.
It’s a little confusing, because if I asked you to play an f# diminished chord, you would likely play its four note version f#-a-c-eb. I need to specify a diminished triad if I want f#-a-c; we don’t use the triad version as much. We tend to use those notes either as the top three notes of a dominant 7th chord built on D (known as D7), or as the bottom three notes of a fully diminished chord built on f#. Or as the middle three notes of a D9 or a D b9 (not to be confused with a Db9, which is a dominant 9th chord built on Db. This one’s a b9 chord built on D.)
Octaves, fourths, and fifths can only be called perfect, diminished, or augmented, but they’re never Major or minor. Seconds, thirds, sixths, and sevenths can be Major, minor, diminished, or augmented (but they’re never perfect).
Another way to think of it is a Major chord is a Major third with a minor third above it; a minor chord is a minor third with a Major third above it. A diminished triad is a minor third with a minor third above it, and an augmented chord is a Major third with a Major third above it.
And I could go on about how the notes of an f#m7b5 are the same notes in an am6, but because the roots are different, they function differently in the harmonic movement, but I think I’ve muddied the waters enough for one post…
The triad with minor third above the root and another minor third above that is called a diminished chord or diminished triad. In other words root–minor third–diminished 5th.
So, it’s correct that the F#-C is a diminished interval but the three notes: F#-A-C is a diminished chord and it’s the chord that the people above are referring to as “diminished”, not the intervals.
If Jazz guys see a triad, they want to know what the corresponding 7th chord is and in this case, to fit in the key of G major, the 7th chord is a half diminished 7th: F#-A-C-E. so that’s there the E comes from. It isn’t part of the triad but is part of the 7th.
The plane old diminished triad on the vii of the scale is not commonly used because it ends up sounding more like the dominant 7th with no root. In G major that’s a D 7th chord with no D: (D)-F#-A-C. Might as well just call it D 7th because most people familiar with western major scale music will hear that way anyway.
As I type, I see Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela has already explained. I’ll post this because a second explanation of the same thing sometimes helps and I’ve already typed it up.
Post 13 & 14 by @Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela and @74westy sum it up very nicely.
Just want to add that the Jazz guys almost always refer to F# - A - C - E as F# minor 7, flat 5th. But it is a F# half-diminished chord. Not often seen in Classical, but there are some very famous instances where it is used there.
If you pick three pitches (not worrying about the key or tonality right now…), they form three different intervals. However, merely containing a minor 3rd does not automatically make it a minor chord. For example, a major triad contains a minor 3rd but still has “major” quality when typically used.
As for a F# – A# – C, it might [at least be equivalent to] an incomplete half-diminished seventh chord (or augmented sixth chord or…), for instance.
It’s interesting that there’s still a large disconnect between the language jazz/rock musicians use to describe harmonies, and the language classical musicians use. I was working on a Bach piece with a coach, and he said “No, you’re not quite locked into the harmony under you - listen for a second.” So he played the passage and I said “Oh, I get it - it’s a minor 9th.” He frowned at me and said “No, it’s a major 9th - a minor ninth would be Bb.” I said “No, I mean the chord, the chord with the B in it is an a minor 9th.”. “No,” says he, that would be this" and he plays an a minor with a Bb on the top.
We moved on in the discussion when we finally figured out that we had completely different names for the same sonority…
I don’t think the vii chord is avoided much at all. It tends to want to be resolved to something else (to my ears at least) so you wouldn’t normally linger on it for long, not in rock music at least.
The A being a minor third hasn’t been ignored at all. An F# diminished is not just referring to the C being diminished, it is the name of the chord with the notes F#, A, and C.
F Sharp Diminished Chord on the Guitar (F# dim) – Diagrams, Finger Positions, Theory.
Wallabee darned. According to that link, an F#dim looks a lot like a D7 (xxx212). I bet a 200212 would do it too.