On the brownshirtedness of NYC protesters: An update in the wake of the RNC.

In the halcyon days of summer 2004, when intelligent people still hoped and believed that America’s worst-ever President might also be a one-term President, the Republicans held a little shin-dig in New York City to nominate their guy for a second term, and to rub the liberal city’s nose in “compassionate” conservatism.

We got some interesting reports of the Republican National Convention, and of the protests surrounding it, from multiple news outlets and also from some of our own Dopers, who either live in New York, or who made the journey there for the occasion. Most of the tales, both anecdotal and in the media, told of largely-peaceful protests encompassing a wide variety of American citizens, and not just the unwashed ne’er-do-wells that the news cameras tend to focus on at such gatherings.

But, of course, some of our conservative colleagues begged to differ, making much of small or isolated incidents in an attempt to paint all liberals or Democrats with the brush of violence and extralegal and illegal activity. Perhaps the plainest statement of this position came from Shodan in this thread. He provided us, in post #43, with some statistics, and posed a question:

Well, some people did indeed attempt to discuss the issue, pointing out the problems of making a direct comparison, and also pointing out that a goodly proportion of the anti-DNC protesters in Boston were also, in fact, disaffected Democrats, liberals, and leftists.

When Shodan was asked to clarify his question, he responded, in post #64, with the following:

Well, even at the time the question was asked, it presented a rather simplistic and poorly thought out set of problems, and evidenced very little except a desire to be inflammatory. But that’s by the by.

The problem with stories like this is that everyone reads them while they’re hot, and a lot of people never find out how everything turns out in the end. Well, in case anyone left the post-convention period in the belief that Shodan and his ilk had made a valid general point, i thought it worth pointing out that yesterday’s New York Times might throw some new light on the issue (alternative link to the same story, for those not registered with the Times).

According to the Times’ story:

I’ve suggested above that Shodan blew a few incidents out of proportion in order to make a sweeping generalization. In case you think i’m doing the same thing, and the Kyne’s case was unique, it’s worth looking at a few other aspects of the story:

The Times website also has a video (link on the right of the page) showing the video relating to Kyne and Dunlop’s arrests, and how starkly it contrasted with police testimony. The link also shows the difference between the complete footage of Dunlop’s arrest, and the edited version presented by the DA’s office.

Altogether:

In case anyone be mistaken, this thread is not a pitting of Shodan. All he demonstrated by his remarks was a failure to make logical comparisons, and an inability to understand the difference between an arrest and a conviction. I have just used his quotes to stand as examples of a more general conservative attitude.

I simply thought it was worth noting the circumstances surrounding these dismissals, and making what i think is the rather uncontroversial point that those demonstraters now appear rather somewhat less brownshirted than some would have us believe.

If there’s anything worth pitting here, it’s police officers who are apparently willing to give testimony that is not only proven by video evidence to be false, but that actually claims direct knowledge about arrests at which the testifying officer was apparently not even present. And a DA’s office that is apparently willing to edit video tapes to excise material that offers direct support to the accused person’s defence.

Yeah, that’s pretty much S.O.P. for protest cops.

I was once privileged to be a witness in the criminal trial of Jaggi Singh, one of our nation’s premier shit disturbers. We had attended a protest that was violently broken up by riot police; he had been arrested.

A sequence of police officers gallantly took the stand, swearing on the Bible that they had seen him, specifically, committing certain illegal acts.

Of course, there was testimony from other protesters (including myself) who had been there at various times when he wasn’t doing those acts. There was also police videotape of him not doing those acts (the videotape dwelt on him for much of its length).

He defended himself. The jury acquitted him.

(Interestingly, some time after the protest in question, Jaggi was participating in the “green-zone” - authorized - protest in Quebec City in April 2001 when he was abruptly arrested and held without bail for the duration of the protest, accused of possessing a weapon – a catapult designed to fire teddy bears – that had been created by an entirely different activist group and was being used in an entirely different neighbourhood.)

You were going real good until this point. “I’m not going to PIT Shodan, but let me just call him illogical and stupid.” It is perfectly logical to use arrest rates to discuss events, generally speaking we do not expect the police to arrest people willy nilly and arrest rates are often used in the media. If that assumption is proven wrong, then we can alter our discussion to fit the new facts. And I really don’t get how this is a “conservative” attitude. He had information on the arrest rates, and used it in the argument, damn conservatives!

There is zero reason to claim that Shodan is illogical or stupid here. Underinformed, perhaps, but that’s when you give people of the facts, not call them names.

Is there a reason you’re pitting him instead adding this info to the debate?

Oh, for Og’s sake, I didn’t even look at the timestamp for the thread, it was in September! You’re actually using him as an example when the only available information at the time WAS arrests? I guess we can’t discuss crime at any big event like this until 6 months later when it’s all brought through the court.

Is there a reason you’re putting words in mhendo’s metaphorical mouth that he didn’t say, oh prince of poor paraphrasing?

“All he (Shodan) demonstrated by his remarks was a failure to make logical comparisons, and an inability to understand the difference between an arrest and a conviction.” Those are mhendo’s words. Let me strain my reading comprehension and parse this out:
Shodan demonstrated a failure to make logical comparisons.
Shodan demonstrated an inability to understand the difference between arrest and conviction.

Apparently, that isn’t insulting Shodan. It’s really not a comment at all about Shodan, somehow.

Well. at least you and Shodan can share a love of intellectual dishonesty.

Please, feel free to tell me what that quote actually, honestly, means. I’m feeling especially stupid today.

I don’t read the OP as insulting to Shodan at all. Rather, it raises a valid point: at the time, available evidence invited certain inferences, which were argued strongly by their proponents. Now, based on new evidence, it seems those inferences were not solid, and we learn from this both the error of those inferences and the risk inherent in forming an opinion without all the facts.

Assuming the New York Times’ accounts are valid and representative of the whole, then I’d say mhendo is making a very valid point.

Well, 3-1 against so far, maybe I am reading a bit too much into it. mhendo’s point about arrest/conviction is definitely valid, no question there. If Shodan takes exception to the OP, he can defend himself, I’m sure.

In an honestly run country, somebody in the NYPD would be sweating bullets praying that this the-dog-ate-my-homework excuse would suffice to keep him out of prison.

While I agree strongly with you in the above, Bricker, I’m not so sure about the below:

Rather, it appears to me that mhendo went well out of his way to make several unnecessary pointed references to Shodan - none of which are sympathetic to him for relying on the best data available at the time. The comments referencing Shodan personally are actually quite disparaging. I mean, a guy does some research, posits a theory, and supports it by citing generally accepted contemporary resources. Isn’t that exactly what we’re supposed to be doing in GD? It’s the incessant cry I hear from all and sundry. It’s not Shodan’s fault the contemporary data turned out to be skewed through an unpredictable dynamic.

Did I just use the word “valid” three times?

Sheesh. My internal thesarus must need more coffee.

If nothing else, this should give death penalty proponents some pause. A DA can alter evidence to secure a conviction, and face no consequences for doing so. If said DA is willing to do this in a long-forgotten case of trespassing, I imagine he’d do so in a high profile murder case.

Twice is redundant. Thrice is artistic.

Well, I’m uncomfortable with involved Shodan directly in the discussion myself the idea that this was ‘unpredictable’ is sort of naive, in my opinion. I think it’s pretty well established that such news ‘bullet items’ as arrests and attendance counts are, at this point, expected to be wildly inaccurate during and immediately following an event like this.

So even introducing them as a point in debate is skating a fine line of asking fate to bite you in the ass.

I think you can use this sort of info in a debate, especially if it’s the only available info. In the next debate like this one, the opposition can bring up the 90% dismissal rate as another data point.

Of course, you probably shouldn’t use it to call your opponents brownshirts, either.

Bricker, I don’t know how many times I’ve gone over a post I’m ready to send to see the same word repeated over and over. Annoying as hell.

Well, just FTR, I am a NYC Liberal Dem and today, I am wearing a brown shirt.

There are all kinds of examples of a news story that makes it big for one part of it and that part gives a particular impression of that event, only that latter events show this to be otherwise and this more boring part of the story isn’t covered as well.

(God there was this woman in the news a week or so ago, Terri something? What was her name?)

The NYC police had a policy of arrest everyone you can, hold them for as long as you can and worry about it later when the world isn’t watching. I think it’s great that the prosecutors are dropping cases and it would be great if the cops that lied under oath are held accountable.

But from watching the news at the time, I can see where people would get the idea that “Liberals” = rabble rousers.

I remember a story on GMA in October of 2004. They were talking about people stealing election signs from yards. They talked about how both sides were doing it. Some people had caught people on tape stealing the signs. Now for some reason the video montage of sign thiefs had about a 10 to 1 ratio of people stealing Bush signs to people stealing Kerry signs. So if you just saw the video, Kerry supporters looked like jerks and the supporters of Bush looked like saints, but the audio said the problem was equal.

I’m not sure what this whole thing proves. If 91% of the convictions were ended with not guilty, that still leaves 9% that weren’t. 9% of 1670 is around 150. That is still 30 times more than the 5 arrested at Boston. In addition, given the recent throwings of pies , pies , and more pies not to mention salad dressing at conservative speakers, I would say brownshirt tactics are alive and well on the left.

This worries me far more then whether the OP did or did not disparage Shodan, or whether the DNC or the RNC was picketed harder (given that the incumbent Republican was so controversial, I’d expect more Democrat douchebags to come out of the woodwork then Republican assholes–the Democrats had more to protest).

The charges being dropped isn’t enough. How about investigations and possible criminal charges against the lying shitbag officers?