On the need for direct personal action in emergencies.

Great Debates
41

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Just think to yourself what you would do if your own femoral artery was hit. Would you make it out like Kevin Sterne? Or would you bleed to death before anyone could help you.
[/QUOTE]

As an Ex-EMT, I know the value of a tourniquet :smiley:

I have long been an advocate for a required advanced first aid (like to the point of basic EMT) training for all HS students. As an alternative something akin to CERT training might be highly useful as well.

CERT (Community Emergency Response Team)

Might even be able to get away with running it as a summer school elective for extra credits or something. Doing it as a summer session would also give alot more room to drill with less disruption to the rest of the campus.

42

[QUOTE=Kevbo]
Pilots refer to these sort of “what if?” exercises as “hanger flying”. I have never, ever, heard of anyone benefiting from such. The scenarios ALWAYS either lack enough specific information, or assume knowledge that won’t be readily available in a crises. (like the specific cause of an engine losing power) Hanger flying is just a pleasant way to waste time when the weather is not suitable for the real thing.
[/QUOTE]

I disagree.

First of all, the exact scenarios aren’t the point - the excercise in thinking and problem solving is the point. The other lesson, in many cases, is that you can act to rescue yourself from a bad situation. The belief you can save yourself can be as important as any particular action you take.

This, of course, is aside from the pure tall tales you can get hangar flying.

43

[QUOTE=monstro]
Also, remember that Columbine happened eight years ago. Most of the victims were still in elementary school when it happened.
[/QUOTE]

One of the survivors of the recent VT shooting was also a student at Columbine during that shooting.

Poor woman… but she survived both.

44

Finally, about inaction…

I’m the emergency response floor warden at work (a job I got basically because when they said “volunteers please step forward” everyone else took a step back and left me standing there). I’ve had people go into stunned bunny mode during a fire drill. There’s always one or two who are stumbling in small circles around their desk going “what do I do? what do I do?”. We have emergency drills at least 4 times a year! Not to mention that these folks presumably had drills at school growing up.

I am convinced that, just there are people willing to jump up and be heros, there are people who are, by nature, sheep. They may be wonderful, charming, sweet human beings but they are useless in a crisis.

We had a microwave oven meltdown/fire on the floor a few months back. I had been off the floor when it started and when I came back there were these goofs standing around with clouds of rolling steam filled with nasty burned-plastic fumes. One woman (a sheep, but a nasty harpy-sheep) angrily started in with “Where were you? You’re the floor warden! You should be doing something!”

I looked at here “Lady, you don’t need permission to call 911 - if I’m not around you’re allowed to do something about a fire on the floor yourself!”

I blame it on part on social conditioning to obey authority and rely on experts for everything. Really, I expect that if this woman isn’t told to evacuate she’d sit there with the ceiling falling in around her and roaring flames all around.

Fortunately, if someone does take command people do tend to follow. The trick is that one person has to actually step up to the plate.

45

I certainly agree with the need for better preparedness- first aid, survival kits, generic emergency plan, etc. But I wonder how much good that will do for the people, like Broomstick points out, that are totally willing to sit around with their thumbs up their asses in emergencies.

My real question is, can the type of quick-thinking and decision-making skill necessary in emergencies be taught? Knowing basic first aid is useless if you’re running around screaming. Obviously, certain personality types are better at this than others- the EMT and police types. Others, like military personnel, are extensively trained.

I’m an action type. I don’t have the personality for it, but growing up in a bad part of town and having found myself in quite a few emergency situations, I have the benefit of past experience. I also practice situational awareness (didn’t know that’s what it was called, but it’s necessary) and know basic first aid, and now I am used to making split second decisions in stressful situations. Whether it’s a bar fight or a car accident or a crazed gunmen storming into your school, they all require a similar skillset.

So while I agree that being prepared for an emergency is important, I wonder if it will help very many people. Specifically, the type of people who would freak out during a fire drill.

46

[QUOTE=monstro]
But I have a problem with posts like yours, CannyDan. It is easy to be so glibly judgmental when you have the luxury of putting all the pieces together, from the comfort of a peaceful living room.
[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry if this appeared either glib or judgemental-- neither was intended. I certainly do not blame those at VT for being victims. Nor do I claim any significant “situational awareness” for myself. Had I been present, I might well have been a victim too. I was merely reinforcing the ideas suggested by several posters that:

  1. people in familiar situations tend to overlook the significance of unfamiliar events, and
  2. some sorts of training or mental exercise can modify this, and
  3. if more people practiced this skill, somewhat different outcomes might sometimes result.

I certainly wouldn’t expect every student or instructor, everywhere, to run to the door upon hearing a “pop”. But had even one done so at VT, the outcome, at least for that classroom, may have been different.

Broomstick’s story suggests that many people may not be capable of such independent actions (“Lady, you don’t need permission to call 911 - if I’m not around you’re allowed to do something about a fire on the floor yourself!”) But a rare individual may exercise that ability. Then, as Broomstick further suggests, “if someone does take command people do tend to follow. The trick is that one person has to actually step up to the plate.”

We are already encouraged to exercise situational awareness in certain situations, like dark and lonely parking lots. We are told to look around, stay near the lights, open and close our car door quickly, and such. Some people surely do this. And some people, presumably some *other * people, get carjacked.

And note that this is not restricted to classrooms, popping noises, and parking lots. If some guy on the bus is fiddling with an apparatus in his bag, do we all just wait to see what will happen? Or does somebody say “Hey, buddy, whatcha got there?”. If he’s having trouble with his MP3 player, no harm done. But if he’s fumbling with his trigger mechanism, well, maybe some good may have been done.

Dropzone, I, and others seem to be suggesting that encouraging this kind of behavior may be beneficial. After all, it might take only one person on the bus, one person in the classroom, to influence the outcome.

47

I credit too many years in the Boy Scouts. We were taught first aid and to be confident in our abilities. And I, as a deadass Patrol Leader, encouraged my “men” to think and do for themselves with little guidance from me and none from the adults, who were often off someplace drinking, anyway. We may have seemed like a bunch of screw-offs, because we were, but we were a highly successful bunch of screw-offs, winning a district-wide award the first two times it was awarded. (We were blocked from winning the third year.)

Another thing was going to a decrepit, old high school. One morning we were slow leaving the chemistry lab during a fire drill. Afterwards, the teacher said that an analysis of the building showed that in that section, the one second only to the cafeteria for fire potential, students had 45 seconds to get out before the wing was engulfed in flames. We looked at the bunsen burners and antique wood counters then thought of the Our Lady of the Angels School Fire, twelve years before but branded on our memories, and found a way to cut our exit time in half. Nothing like the prospect of a fiery death to put a spring in your step! The high school district sold the building to a Christian school. I hope they included that information.

And then there has been living most of my life near airports, where airplanes drop from the sky (I worked a couple miles away and saw the smoke), and in Tornado Alley (6/9/66 - the appartments mentioned were 100 yards away from my house). On the one hand, I’m a suburbanite for whom life has always been relatively easy. On the other hand, shit can happen any time and any place and it’s stupid to not know where the exits are.

48

Not sure what the debate here is: being prepared, especially for things like first aid, are definately good things and people need more training and thinking about crisis management. Does anyone disagree with that?

49

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
As I look at the Virginia Tech tragedy, and reflect too on other recent events, it becomes clear to me that it is imperative that we all be prepared to act ourselves when emergencies happen. Panic and inaction only gets more people killed, and waiting for cops and paramedics can similarly leave you dead.

Most importantly, when the next disaster hits, don’t just wait for the cops to show up. Without being suicidal, see what you can do to directly help yourself and those around you. Do not interfere with the professionals who are on hand to deal with the disaster, but do not count on them for everything, especially in the first few minutes of a crime or the first few days of a natural disaster.

It is in these disasters that our responsibilities as citizens become most clear. If they touch you directly, your proper role isn’t to say that your taxes pay the cops, firefighters and paramedics. Your proper role is to help in such a way as the situation warrants, and in such a way as your abilities and talents allow.
[/QUOTE]

Mere common sense isn’t it? Of course there are always those who refuse to help themselves or anyone else for that matter.

50

All the preparation in the world won’t help if people don’t realize they are in an emergency situation.

Even when people are aware that something bad is happening somewhere in the vicinity, their innate sense of invisibility will keep them from reacting to it proactively. I suspect this is what kept a lot of the Katrina victims from evacuating. There’s a certain inertia to overcome when you’re accustomed to normalcy. Bad things happen to other people, not you.

That said, even if I suspected that a gunman was somewhere in the building, and my life was in imminent danger, I think my first instinct would be to run out of the classroom. Knowing that the killer can only be in one place at one time, I would have tried to be get as much distance between him and me as possible instead of waiting for him to come to me. I can also imagine myself worrying about a bomb as well, since the school had had a threat the week prior. Staying in the classroom, even behind a barricaded door, would not have been my first thought.

But this strategy of fleeing very well would have gotten me killed, since he chained the building door shut. :frowning:

51

[QUOTE=drachillix]
I have heard literally thousands of gunshots in my IPSC days, hammering can be very similar depending on the materials and resistance offered/force used. In addition there are more than a few fastener guns that use a small .22 casing of gunpowder or ignited butane as a driving charge.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve always been amazed that when I read news reports of gunshots, someone invariably says “it sounded like a car backfiring,” and when a car backfires, someone will say, “I thought it was gunshots!”

While walking with my mother-in-law and then-infant daughter through a department store that was being remodeled in spots, we heard a loud popping noise. My MIL immediately identified it as a gunshot and literally threw her body over me and my daughter, knocking us both to the ground. I hadn’t yet even registered that the noise was out of place. We discovered that the noise was indeed a nail gun, but I remain astonished to this day at how quickly my mother-in-law reacted, and dismayed to realize that, had I assumed it was a gunshot, my first reaction would likely have been to cover my own head, not necessarily to protect someone else. :frowning:

52

Since it was mentioned in the OP on the need for direct personal action: Liviu Librescu, a man who had seen brutality both in the Holocaust and in his home country of Romania, with an intricate understanding of Aerodynamics, an accomplished academic. His response was to Act, and protect his students, and encourage them to survive by exiting via the windows. Is that Brave, or short-sighted, or great altruistic kindness and wisdom of an older person who has seen the worst of humanity? One could wither mentally, seeing what he had seen, but his last act was the best example of heroism/decency.

To the best I can imagine, his complacency was shattered early on, and he proceeded with an appreciation of all in mind after that. It’s something we should all try to cultivate.

53

[QUOTE=Little Nemo]
I agree with Moto; a lot of times you hear about people in some crisis simply sitting there and letting themselves be swept under. A lot of people are afraid to take any initiative - they may recognize there’s an emergency but their response is to wait for somebody else to tell them what to do. Ironically, this lack of initiative is worse in a crowd - a person alone in the room will realize they have to take action on their own while individuals in a crowd will wait for somebody else to take charge.

Personally, I work in an environment where emergencies happen on a regular basis and I’m the person in charge (albeit often not the person at the immediate scene of the emergency) - so I’ve learned how to jump in and take charge. And I’ve noticed that in non-job related situations (emergency or otherwise) I’m usually more willing to take initiative than other people are.
[/QUOTE]

I am going to try to word this very carefully because this is a highly emotionally charged event, and thread, and I don’t want to have my intent misunderstood.

I agree with everything that Little Nemo said here. I am a retired E.M.T. with 6 years of EMS experience, and (unfortunately) first responder experience on Sept. 11th, 2001. This topic came up a week ago when I flew to Vegas for work. I was in the emergency row, which I always ask for due to my height. The person sitting next to me said " yes, I will help" when asked to verbally respond by the flight attendant but then as we took of, she offered the thoughts that basically she wouldn’t know what to do.

It is not some heroic thing to know what to do, or to want to gain the knowledge so you know what to do. Some folks are able to quickly process incoming information that is distressing and move towards a logical and safe response. Some are not. It’s not a criticism. I do clearly recognize when I am out of my element and am very willing to be a follower NOT a leader if it is the safest thing to do.

For those willing to take that initiative, we already know how we go through our lives- looking for exits, assessing situations, looking around. For those of us who are not of a predisposition to take initiative in a crisis moment, I would ask you to do the following: In the adrenaline-pumped panicked heat of the moment, try to force yourself to do as you are asked to do by those individuals who by action and word are making it clear that they are able to assess and handle the situation better than you.

Leaders are invaluable. Cowboys raise the body count, to be blunt. If I feel I can lead, I will do so- immediately coordinating with those around me who are similarly trained, because we are all trained to immediately work as a team- even if we have never met before.

Mass panic is it’s own danger. An airplane landing badly skidding towards the trees is out of control. The moment it strikes the trees and breaks up and skids to a stop, those first few moments will decide of a pile of bodies are found near exits or if most folks get out alive, if not completely intact.

Simiarly this mass shooting event we have all mourned for the last week. This is about a mindset and assessing danger and response time. I do NOT surround myself with weapons, I am a pacifist. My choices are predicated upon looking around, making use of all available assets extremely rapidly and working with strangers to get a positive result. If I witness a car accident and I can respond with my hands, I immediately take one witness to take notes, another to use their cell phone to call 911 and repeat what I am telling them, and so on. You use the assets on hand.

In a school or office, that would mean if I heard gunshots I would not wait to be told there was shooting going on. I’d attempt to secure the door and then communicate with the outside world. Every situation is different of course, this is real life and not a scripted drama.

Let me beat the poster to this by saying that it is very easy for me to sit and type all of this out in the calm of my own home, and another thing for me to do as I say I would. Like Little Nemo and other First Responders on this board, I have a mindset that lent itself to proper training and approaching a crisis with a focused mindset.

Blind panic is normal and expected, the fight or flight response is an animal instinct and I’m as much an animal as anyone else. The differences are that some folks funnel the fight instinct into positive and rapid responses designed to protect or help others. Some folks fight with violent force. Some folks freeze. Some flee. It is the bell curve of human responses.

The lesson is this: do as you are told by those who have asserted a clear understanding and authority in the moment. It may well save your life, or prevent unneeded injuries.

Cartooniverse, New York State E.M.T. (Ret.)

54

[QUOTE=you with the face]
But this strategy of fleeing very well would have gotten me killed, since he chained the building door shut. :frowning:
[/QUOTE]

I for one flatly refuse to believe that any modern structure at a school has only one exit. I call bullshit that it was the sole entrance and exit in this large building. I DO understand that peopl will flee to the entrance/exit they know and use. However, just as in the case of a fire, one should know where exits are in a building beyond the front doors you use every day.

55

[QUOTE=Cartooniverse]
I for one flatly refuse to believe that any modern structure at a school has only one exit. I call bullshit that it was the sole entrance and exit in this large building. I DO understand that peopl will flee to the entrance/exit they know and use. However, just as in the case of a fire, one should know where exits are in a building beyond the front doors you use every day.
[/QUOTE]

I’ve been in schools where the fire exits were chained shut and locked by the school’s administrative staff. They knew it was a violation of the fire code, they didn’t care.

56

I work in an Engineering building. It has exactly three exits. One is obscure and exits to a lawn area, it is located between floors halfway down a staircase that most people don’t know about. Another is the “main” entrance and the last is a loading facility. This is a new building <10 years old. I give people directions to exits on a daily basis. Most times they come back and I have to lead them to the exits. Don’t get me going on giving them directions to the restrooms that are even more obscurely located.

The main admin building has as far as I know also only three exits. Two in the same location, one on the ground floor the other directly above it on the 2nd floor. The third exit is at the back of the ‘huge’ building and you have to go up one staircase and down another, around a corner, up a ramp and thru an alcove to get to it. If I don’t use the third at least every semester I forget how to get there even following the obscure exit signs. I fully believe if there is ever a fire in that building we will all die.

I routinely teach in older buildings that as far as I know have only one entrance. I’m not sure you guys know how goofy some University campuses are laid out.

And all you guys saying, “THEY HAD TWO MINUTES TO REACT, WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!” Bite me. Send me a postcard after you’ve been in the same situation and acted the hero.

ETA Sorry if I come off a little cranky, this hit a little close to home.

57

[QUOTE=mks57]
I’ve been in schools where the fire exits were chained shut and locked by the school’s administrative staff. They knew it was a violation of the fire code, they didn’t care.
[/QUOTE]

That is horrifying. My town built a new High School in the last 10 years and the week the school opened, all of the fire doors were chained shut. This is a town with an unusual number of NYPD cops and FDNY firefighters as residents, and their children attend.

The doors were cut open by the Fire Inspector, who proceeded to FINE the school board ( as you cannot fine the Principal, apparently… ) for violation of the Fire Code. That was the last time they pulled that crap.

Not all of us are screeching that statement in all caps, okay? The recognition of fear factor, freezing up, adrenaline, fight or flight, whatever you want to call it- two minutes can crawl by or fly by but in a case of life threat, it rarely is the time for calm introspection. That much should be obvious.

58

post #2, same idea repeated several times later by same poster in lower case.

All right it was only a couple, like I said this hit a little close to home for me. Sorry for the shouting, never did that before.

59

Incidentally, I finally spoke to my brother. It turns out that he did indeed teach Kevin Sterne, the young man I described in the OP.

I’ve never heard my brother speak with greater praise about one of his students - he said Kevin was one of the top five he’s ever taught. He was horrified to hear that he had been shot in this tragedy, but the fact that he had applied a tourniquet to himself did not surprise my brother in the least.