On the political spectrum, what good things do you feel the far left accompish

Great Debates
1

So the center left would be people like Sanders, AOC, Warren.

The far left would be socialists and communists.

I keep hearing the far left say that liberals (the center left) hate them because of how effective and pure they are. But I’m not seeing it in my personal life. The far left from what I’ve seen has been taken over by campism and communal narcissism.

When narcissists find something that satisfies their core self-motives (grandiosity, entitlement, power, esteem), they relentlessly pursue this.

  • The communal narcissist does it via “communal” or moralistic means, e.g., “I am the most helpful, caring, trustworthy, and benevolent person there is.”

Other socialist organizations, especially those inspired by Maoism, shifted toward Third-worldism or Maoism–Third Worldism and labor aristocracy theory.[4] This view became substantially stronger after the United States invasion of Iraq in 2003[10][6] and again after the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2014.[6][11][12] In the modern self proclaimed “anti-imperialist” second-campist view, there are two real camps:[1]

  • First camp: “Imperialist” countries, led by the United States; similar to imperial core, to Global North, or to Western world
  • Second camp: “Anti-imperialist” countries, possibly led by China, Venezuela, or Russia; similar to the Global South, or peripheral countries, or to non-West but often simply defined as any nation that stands in opposition to the first camp.
  • Third (non-)camp: Unaligned countries

So from what I’ve seen from my vantage point, the modern far left doesn’t really achieve much. Not only that but governments taken over by the far left have a lot of problems. Centrally planned economics is a failure and has been abandoned by every communist nation on earth. The USSR fell and gave it up. China, Laos and Vietnam gave it up. China’s economy stagnated for 30 years under Mao, then when they abandoned Marxist economics in 1978 the economy started growing at 10% a year. Cuba is bringing in markets. In North Korea the unofficial economy is the black market.

Plus the severe oppression the far left causes. The USSR, Venezuela, Cuba, China, Vietnam, etc are not places where people have human rights or freedom.

So from my perspective, looking at the modern far left, it doesn’t seem impressive. Its a mix of campists who think that evil, imperialism, colonialism and oppression are perfectly fine just so long as the people doing it are non-white and non-western. Or they outright are in favor of imperialism and colonialism (the USSR, Islamist movements).

But it was my impression that there were a lot of redeeming characteristics about the far left in the early 20th century.

They’d get hired at factories, then unionize the workforce

They’d provide legal aid for black people being railroaded by the criminal justice system in the south.

Nations like the USSR invested in R&D, health care, education, infrastructure.

China tried to crack down on domestic violence.

Are there pragmatic, humane far leftists in the modern age? I’ve met quite a few far leftists, and the only ones that I would consider to actually be helpful and pragmatic usually end up being center left after you talk to them. Most of the far left I’ve met are just bragging about how morally superior they are, or promoting evil dictatorships. They aren’t out forming labor unions or fighting for civil rights like the communists of the early 20th century did.

What good things do you feel the far left on both the grassroots and governmental level accomplish in the last 150 years or so?

Also this is about the far left, not the center left. Center left nations would be like Finland, Sweden, etc. They have heavily regulated capitalism with large amounts of redistribution and regulations. They also have world class civil, human and political rights. Those are examples of center left nations, not far left nations.

2

Oh, I dunno…how about the Civil Rights Movement and all that came with it (e.g. The Civil Rights Act, desegregation, ending anti-miscegenation laws, ending of “separate but equal” and so on).

More recently, the left are the ones fighting for universal healthcare, addressing wealth inequality, restoration of worker’s rights, keeping religion out of classrooms and so on. They have not succeeded there yet.

3

I think some more clarity on what you mean by left and far left is necessary. There is so much confusion and disagreement on what these terms mean. Many, historically and today, would argue the USSR, etc. are not “far left,” but are at best authoritarian left; some would call them “state capitalist.” “Authoritarian” does not equal “far left.” And let us distinguish between “nations” and movements.

But for now, we might recall that the “far left” was the first to recognize and fight fascism and Nazism. The Communist Party in the US led the fight for civil rights and gender equality–Betty Friedan, for example, was “CP-adjacent” before she became famous. Some of MLK’s first and most important strategists and advisors came from the Communist Party. The CP trained activists and unionists, and boldly went where no one went before to organize unions. Far left groups like the IWW developed new tactics and ideas and ideals that won battles and inspired others.

The far left continues to do that. More broadly, it offers a powerful and clear radical (that is, “goes to the root of the problem”) critique of capitalism, the state, and yes, labour and the left that makes sense and helps us understand the problems we face. As the saying goes, “class consciousness is knowing what side of the fence you’re on. Class analysis lets you figure out who’s there with you.”

Finally, the US far leftist I.F. Stone (in the last issue of his journal, I.F. Stone’s Weekly, he reiterated his afffinity for…wait for it…Kropotkin) summed up the value of the far left thusly
“The only kinds of fights worth fighting are those you are going to lose, because somebody has to fight them and lose and lose and lose until someday, somebody who believes as you do wins. In order for somebody to win an important, major fight 100 years hence, a lot of other people have got to be willing — for the sheer fun and joy of it — to go right ahead and fight, knowing you’re going to lose. You mustn’t feel like a martyr. You’ve got to enjoy it.”

That spirit is rekindled by the far left in each generation.

ps: agree, Maoists are irrelevant and cultish.

4

It sounds to me that what happened is that society as a whole moved left, and what was the “far left” became the “liberals”.

As for the modern far left, most of the ones I’ve encountered aren’t actually doing anything; just sitting around waiting for the inevitable spontaneous World Revolution that will cast down capitalism and user in an eternal age of socialism. Communist Millenarianism, basically.

5

That’s an interesting definition of the “far left”. In your opinion, what percentage of the left is comprised of your definition of “far left”?

6

I don’t have a number, but pretty small I think. It’s not like I have a way to poll people on it, even if they’d answer (they tend to be justifiably paranoid about government persecution).

7

So, is Bernie Sanders “far left?” Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?

I mean, if the measure is the fringiest of fringe then it’s not too hard to find nutcases on either end of the political spectrum.

I’d prefer to discuss the people who are actually in congress and can affect our laws and have some impact (of course, not my thread).

8

You may be looking for the left in all the wrong places, as Johnny Lee didn’t quite sing. They’re in unions, churches, social movements, even in your neighbourhood. Would add that when you poll people on left questions (small example, “Do you think unions are a good thing?”) they skew more left than you might think. But without union education programs, with the purging of the left from unions and the Democrats over the last 80 years, the chilling effects of “Mcarthyism” in its historical and contemporary versions, the isolation of workplaces from communities, and more, it is hard for people organize or even meet.

Oh, and another benefit of the far left: when it has the ability, it pushes the Overton window and politicians to the left. Without that, we’d move to the right a lot faster and further.

9

Honestly not much. I’m a socialist and have been a member and at one point treasurer of my local DSA chapter for many years and I recently left them after they decided that punishing Kamala Harris and the Democrats for their support of Israel was more important than opposing Trump and the devastation he would cause. They made it clear that they didn’t think the rights of trans people like me, immigrants, and other minorities were as important than something another country is doing halfway around the world when they withheld their votes or wasted them on third-party candidates who had no chance of winning.

I even told them all after I left how short-sighted they were and that Trump would be even worse for the Palestinians, as well as everyone else, but they had already made up their minds. And everything I said would happen has happened.

Even today, leftists are still blaming the Democrats for everything Trump is doing. That’s why I have no more contact with any of them. Screw the far left, they do nothing but help enable fascism.

10

Throw in the Green Party, and the “good” things they’ve been accomplishing include:

  1. Helping to elect Trump, and
  2. Comic relief
11

No. I don’t think someone far left would be electable. I’m talking about people who propose things like “all jobs should be filled with people chosen by lot” or “all non Native Americans should be expelled from America”. The sort who have no real concern for morality or practicality, just ideological purity.

As I touched on above, I think that our culture in general has moved left enough (and the term “left” is taboo enough) that the far left are the remaining fringe extremists.

The kind of people who never bother to temper their beliefs with practicality or compromise because they know they’ll never actually have to try to implement them.

12

Yep, that’s what it was like in the DSA. Mostly communists and anarchists who wouldn’t compromise on anything short of revolution and eventually considered people like Bernie and AOC to be sellouts because they worked within the system.

Many were tankies and/or accelerationists who wouldn’t accept any facts that contradicted their precious theory. Especially Marxist-Leninists who wouldn’t accept that their ideology has led to nothing but tyrannical dictatorships every time a revolution is successful.

13

I’d suggest the Overton Window is moving to the right. Look at the last election (or the one before that or the one before that). How has the Overton Window moved left yet an authoritarian conservative like Trump won? Not to mention pulled a fair number of traditionally left-leaning voters?

How much of Silicon Valley leaders bent the knee to Trump? How many mainstream media outlets have bent the knee to Trump? Even Google went with renaming the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America and AP News, a holdout for that re-name and keeping the Gulf of Mexico has been thrown out of White House press briefings.

This is not a country that is moving or even leaning to the left.

14

Because the left won the culture war but lost the political one, and because our political system is rigged to favor the Right. Most of the population is composed of people the Right hates, but they have proportionally far less political power.

15

The far left keeps the conversation alive about things like universal healthcare, UBI, stronger labor laws, etc. They are pretty much the only folks advocating for such. They are also the only ones truly prodding the Ds into any sort of action or accountability.

However, there are a few tankies/Chomsky folks in the far left who are so far left that they’ve gone full horseshoe theory and support Putin because “whatever America does is bad, so anything anti-American is good.”

16

The answer to what they have accomplished is pretty much nothing. Because they are impractical and intransigent, among other qualities. They have nothing really to offer at present. When things become extremely dire, however, they will be part of the Good Fight. Probably.

The regular left, or progressives, or whatever you want to call them, have advanced almost every single thing worth having – human rights for all, an end to slavery, a social safety net, safe working conditions, justice, a free press – you name something societally good, it is, or originally was, a goal of the left. What they have not accomplished is convincing the right that those are good things. So there is a continual fight, which at present we are losing.

17

I assume you have seen the rise in Nazi or Nazi-adjacent protests in the US. The storming of the US capitol and so on. But it is the left that is more fringy? Is that because these traditionally far-right fringe groups are now becoming mainstream that they don’t count as the fringe anymore?

Heck, a U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement prosecutor has been found to be running a White Supremacists social media account.

That person is in the government with real power. That’s mainstream to you now?

18

When extremists take power they try to crush everyone else and become the mainstream by default; that doesn’t make them less extreme.

And the longstanding dominance of the Right in US politics is a major reason why the left is only a small fringe.

19

What good has the far left done in the US recently, as defined by the OP?

Normies have dropped out of the DSA over the past couple of years, but during the 2000s and 2010s I appreciated the fact that they didn’t go third party green. AOC was a member of the DSA, so for a while the far left supported the expansion of the Overton window into Bernie Sander’s territory. That’s a substantial accomplishment. Wiki says:

The DSA experienced a significant ideological shift after 2016, with an influx of younger members who helped push the organization toward anti-Zionism and support for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movements. This shift brought in a broader array of ideologies than the DSA’s original focus on reformist and popular front strategies.

During the 2023 DSA National Convention, Marxist and revolutionary socialist factions won a majority of seats on the DSA’s 2023–2025 National Political Committee, marking a further shift to the left.

So we can date the DSA’s de facto support of ethnic cleansing in Gaza, as advocated by Trump earlier this month, to 2016-2023. Before that, they had accomplishments.

Personally, I oppose ethnic cleansing as well as far-right religionists, unlike many far leftists.Noah Smith on the decline of the far left:

Noah Smith on the decline of the DSA:

Now I think I’m starting to understand a bit better. In a post about why he quit the DSA, Maurice Isserman explains that Palestine became a wedge issue that extremist “entryists” used to muscle out more moderate members.

I see this as wasted potential. Noah Smith:

I would like to think that the new American socialist movement’s forays into the ridiculous and the reprehensible are simply growing pains. But looking at the even starker failures of Corbyn’s movement in the UK and Melenchon’s movement in France, it’s difficult to be optimistic about this. Yes, about half of young Americans say they like socialism, but this won’t necessarily stop the movement from turning into a kooky fringe over time — as an example, libertarian views in America are quite common, but almost no Americans identify as political libertarians. I can easily envision socialism following a similar path.

The OP seemed to wonder whether there were any possibilities for a useful far-left. I say there are, and they were exemplified in Harrington’s DSA.

20

This is a mischaracterization of Chomsky’s views, though there may well be people who do hold this view.