The problem with the latter position is that it has an obvious flaw. If capitalism is so inherently bad, how did we manage to make the progress we made, from the enlightenment up though 2015 or so? That was a solid run of several hundred years. A center leftist can point to people like Trump and Musk and, IMHO successfully, make the argument that “capitalism is bad because my boss is a jerk”. To argue the latter seems to imply that we would be just as well off, or maybe even better off, with some other system. As the thread title says, where is the example we can point to of a successful alternative? The best we can point to, as far as I can tell, is capitalism with a benevolent boss. Even if the boss is only benevolent because someone like Franklin Roosevelt, LBJ, or even the much maligned Richard Nixon is forcing them to be benevolent, that’s still better than any other system we’ve have so far.
The question is irrelevant. Even Marx insisted capitalism “has accomplished wonders far surpassing Egyptian pyramids, Roman aqueducts, and Gothic cathedrals; it has conducted expeditions that put in the shade all former Exoduses of nations and crusades…during its rule of scarce one hundred years, it has created more massive and more colossal productive forces than have all preceding generations together. Subjection of Nature’s forces to man, machinery, application of chemistry to industry and agriculture, steam-navigation, railways, electric telegraphs, clearing of whole continents for cultivation, canalisation of rivers, whole populations conjured out of the ground — what earlier century had even a presentiment that such productive forces slumbered in the lap of social labour?”
The question Marx and radicals ask is, “how do we understand and deal with the economic and political issues we face today? How do we create a free society in which we all may realize our full potential?”
Capitalism may have been necessary, though this is debated; how do we go beyond it remains the issue.
That’s one of those easier said than done questions. IMHO we are likely past the point that anything can be done. It would take a very lucky break that I don’t see as being in the cards. What I believe it comes down to is having a well educated population. The right wing in the developed world is actively trying to destroy the educational opportunities of the poor and working class and replace a real education with indoctrination. Had we worked harder at preventing that back in the 50 or so years leading up to 2015, we might have prevented the current outcome. Unfortunately we had a few bad breaks along the way, and now here we are.
I don’t know if thats a red-brown-green alliance. It seems like the browns are on the side of Israel since the browns hate Islam. The browns hate Jews too, just less than they hate muslims (enemy of my enemy is my friend).
This article covers a lot of red-green alliances in modern times.
No matter how unlikely it may seem, radical Leftists and Islamists have come closer in recent years. Drawing on substantial ideological interchange, and operating at both state and non-state levels, the two movements are building a Common Front against the United States and its allies. In this article, we use framing theory to examine the contemporary convergence of political Islam and the radical Left. Both radical Leftists and Islamists have utilized the master frame of anti-globalization/anti-capitalism and the master frame of anti-colonialism/anti-imperialism to elicit support from the widest possible range of people. The emerging Red-Green alliance presents a complex challenge that will require careful attention from U.S. and European policymakers
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Agreed! It may be the best we can hope for is something like the slow decline and end of the western Roman Empire and its replacement by smaller, localized political groupings. Something will come from the mess we’ve made, though likely not from our direct, conscious intervention and direction. What that will look like may be informed by utopian ideas, and thus the utility of a far left that dares to dream of a democratic society, with democracy extended into how we organize work and installed at the local level.
IMHO we are likely past the point that anything can be done about an educated population. And the reasons why? Our capitalist system combined with modern technologies, ease of global economic reach and the power/wealth discrepancies that follow.
How do you get a “well educated population” when we are assaulted 24/7 with media and advertisements targeted to each of us individually in order to extract maximum wealth from the system- either by influencing our purchasing, or by influencing our politics?
And insisting this is the best of all possible worlds. Yet I keep repeating Eduardo Galeano’s plea, that we save our pessimism for better times.
Leftist extremist brought you the 40 hour work week and women’s right to vote. State provided healthcare.
Social Security, concepts like Health and safety in the workplace. Unions.
All workers’ rights, hell, human rights are left wing ideas.
The right is about bigotry, identity shit and gaslighting people to let them forget about the clas war they are losing.
But are they left wing extremist ideas? When I hear “left wing extremist” I think of the people who want to kill everyone who disagrees with them, not people who promote unions.
Henry Ford was a leftist?
Left wing extremism’s original slogan is “ Liberté, égalité, fraternité”. All right-wing or conservative politics descents from anti (French) revolutionary movements.
The rights’ only ideology is that those in power should stay in power (originally Louis XVI) the thing they are conserving is the status quo, preferably the status before the French Revolution.
When leftist actually were accomplishing stuff they were pretty extreme.
No, but he didn’t exactly come up with a 40 hour working week so that is ok.
That’s an interesting, and totally incomplete, history of the 40 hour work week in the US.
The “extremist” part gets tacked on by the people who should fear the guillotine.
We haven’t lobbed any heads of since forever.
Weirdly, ending the death penalty was also a leftist idea.
If we define “extremists” by their propensity to extra-legal violence, then we find them across the political spectrum. That tells us nothing about the content of their views, only their choice of tactics. And it fogs the discussion of what “far left” ideas might be such as abolishing capitalism and the state by peaceful means. Noam Chomsky and Ursula Le Guin hold “extreme” left views, judging by the content and the vision they hold. But their means are not violent.
Totally. And I try to stay disengaged from discussions where all I can muster is a “we’re fucked”.
However, I do think it’s important to acknowledge that these systems are all tied to each other. Addressing the problem of an “uneducated” population is impossible without addressing the state of capitalism’s vice grip on our culture and communication pathways. And convincing ourselves that addressing “education” can be done without addressing those other issues is one of the reasons we are where we are.
Agreed. “Education” itself has never been neutral; it has always served the interests of those in charge of the economy and the political apparatus. It doesn’t only serve those interests, and many educators push back, but at the end of the day, education is more or less in line with those in charge, not just in what is taught but how it is taught. Lining up in rows and moving when the bell tells you to shapes people as much as rote learning and reciting the pledge of allegiance does. Some resist, some escape, many do not have those opportunities, and some are happy to go along because they are keen to become authoritarians and tell people what to do in business, politics, and the education system.
Part of the problem is the stifling of movements and institutions that used to provide alternate education, from “free schools” to unions to grassroots organizations. They have been gutted and where they do exist, are drowned out, as you note.
All of this is some of the value provided by the “far left,” which has also provided the pioneers of things such as the 8-hour day, led by labour radicals and anarchists, some of whom were executed, jailed, or deported for their efforts.
It was? I’d think a state imposed death penalty dates back to kings and nobles.
“Ending”
I appreciate this and wish more people followed your example.