Coming a bit late to the game, (and at the risk of being labeled a “me too”, which, if so, so be it.)
For those who seem to think, without religion, the world would be all hunky-dory, that religion is the main source of evil in this world, blah blah blah, please ask yourself the following:
What drives the mafia? Why did the US support so many dictators in Latin America? Why did the United Fruit Company, for that matter, exploit Latin America? What did Leopold II of Belgium do to the Congo, and why? Who was Smedley Butler? What was the School of the Americas?
And I invite you to read the following three books:
-King Leopold’s Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror, and Heroism in Colonial Africa, Adam Hochschild
-War Is a Racket, Smedly Darlington Butler
-Inevitable Revolutions: The United States in Central America, Walter Lafeber
What was the cause of the above? (hint-it wasn’t religion)
(Because people are assholes, no matter what their motive)
Damn straight. He was the last person to win the Medal of Honor twice-one of only 19, I believe.
(Although he’s no longer living now-he died in 1940.)
As for the LeFeber book, I really, REALLY wish I could quote from my copy, but unfortunately, it was one of the books I had to move to the attic when I was moving my room around. And it’s too hot to go up there and get it-which I’m planning on doing along with the others when the weather starts turning colder.
I don’t think I have ever heard a pro-religious argument yet, that doesn’t just sound like the person is edging their bets for when the day of reckoning arrives. I can’t get beyond thinking that religion is merely a crutch for those unable to cope with the thought of their own mortality.
Yup, nothing like a good Appeal to Ridicule to stir the old synapses, eh?
It’s interesting, because I once asked Czarcasm to explain what evidence he would accept for the existence of God, and why, for instance, flaming letters written across the sky would not, in his world-view, be more easily explained as a delusion. AFAICT the dude still wants God to do that before he’ll take Him seriously, but reserves the right to explain it away as a delusion in the event it does happen. Heads I win and all that.
The doers of the misdeeds, in the likely event that they’ve used a religious excuse as a cloak for what they would have done whether the religion said it or not. I’m guessing, for instance, that bin Laden would want America righteously smoten whether or not it was convenient for him to label the enemy as The Great Satan or not.
It would be a better argument if you’d actually argue against what DT says, not what you think he would say if you could do the phrasing for him.
Your point numbered ‘3’ is silly and irrelevant. You’re just slagging the guy.
‘2’ is unnuanced at best, in that I’m pretty sure that DT’s wish list is not topped by “Every U.S. soldier must be executed today without a trial,” which is what you imply. You think I’ve just mischaracterized your position? Good. Now, you can try to fairly DT’s position accurately, and maybe we can start getting somewhere.
‘1’ is the only relevant point, and I’d like to see you discuss it with DT, or with me, because that’s one of my problems with religious people–they tell you right upfront that they will sometimes take the less rational position on certain issues, despite their often-great knowledge (of science, of math, of logic, of life) that the rational position is technically stronger. That scares me. To take your hypothetical MD who believes in God, I’m really not sure I want somebody operating on my brains who’s content attributing weird stuff to “God’s will.” Not that every theist MD is incompetent (which is what you’ve been mischaracterizing my position as in this thread) but that I want someone who will look exclusively at rational solutions to my neurological problems, all else (degree, years of practice, successful outcomnes, etc.) being equal. When someone says to me, “It’s all in God’s hands, we are but puppets, blablabla,” that’s thinly-disguised code for “I could strangle you with my bare hands right this second if God told me to.” I believe we have more control over our actions than a God-infested universe would have it, and that we need to take more responsibility for our actions as well.
How about everyone being born knowing that there is a god and being told directly what he expects from us?
Osama regularly quotes from the Koran as to the reasons he is against pretty much everyone in the West. If he didn’t have the Koran as his stick, he wouldn’t have anywhere near the followers, or support, he has now.
If he’s a jew in a palestinian neighborhood, he’s probably right.
I won’t go there in this thread. It’s not about religion. I’ll just say that I’m strongly opposed to the war but I don’t believe the US soldiers should be killed.
I wouldn’t presume to know what anyone on these boards does in real life. He’s here because it’s a good place to express his opinion and frustration regarding religion.
I don’t see him in the same light you do. He’s right about the dangers of religion. He’s right that supporting the good is tacit support of the bad.
I cannot think of a single component of my world understanding that I would consider irrational. (Well, maybe my fear of Teletubbies…). But the difference is, my irrational fear of Teletubbies effects no one but me.
Can you explain how you would know that this state of affairs existed, and how you would distinguish the correct belief that this is so from a delusion, and how your worldview would select “delusion” as being the less likely explanation?
If you want to assign the religionists blame, that’s fine with me, as long as they are also given credit for their good, creative works. Fine by me.
I just can’t stand it when anti-theists try to have it both ways - the assertion that the evil that is done in the name of religion would not happen without religion, yet the good that is done in the name of religion would happen without religion.
If you want to say the evil outweighs the bad, that’s also a valid argument. Personally, in the big picture, I see it as more of a wash.
I see religious belief impairs the sense of humor as well? Don’t blame me…I didn’t say it…I just laughed because it was funny. Admit it. It was funny!!
Well, first I’d have to see that it was god operating the flaming sky pen and not some guy with a really cool sky-writing mechanism on his plane. If indeed it is proved that god does exist, he’d have to explain why he purposely confused all the believers with the perpetuation of multiple religions. He’d have to explain why he allowed people to harm one another, and he’d have to show me why he’s worthy of worship. Hell…he’d also have to explain why, in his state of perfection, he needed to create humans (or anything, for that matter). There’s no need for any of it. Why not just be The Big Buzz In The Sky, without ego, without purpose, without creating humans that persist in annoying him?
Like I said before…regardless of his motivation, he gets people to go along with him with promises of virgins and grace and all that good stuff. Pretty hard to get someone to fly a giant fire ball into a building without there being something in it for them.
No argument here. I would just simply posit that attempts to control others need not have a religious basis, and that people who would use religion to control others would, in the absence of religion, still be trying to manipulate and control others.
Well, not two-exclamation-marks funny, but I’ll excuse anyone for having lower comedic standards when the ox that’s being gored is the ox they’d like to gore themselves.
A modest enough set of requirements, I agree.
Exactly right. I can’t imagine how the Japanese ever got those young men to fly their planes - in some cases, rocket planes designed and built for no purpose other than to crash, terminally! - into enemy ships, just because they thought it was their duty. I guess Shinto really must promise seventy-two virgins and all the rest of that stuff, and the Japanese leaders were really all religious zealots, and they’ve just lied about it to the perfidious Occidentals.
How about this then: God is all powerful and all knowing then he can figure out how to prove to us beyond a shadow of a doubt that he exists, okay? Pretty simple and yet he doesn’t do it. I wonder why?
Or perhaps they could be motivated by what they SAY motivates them, religion. But of course, anyone doing evil in religion’s name is a liar. :rolleyes:
Interesting that you are willing to consdier the Catholic Church a vast conspiracy of racists rather than admit that they are doing wrong in the name of religion.
Christian/Jew,Sunni/Shia, Protestant/Catholic come to mind. People who in many cases have no economic, national, personal or any other reason to fight than religion.
You, of course, will insist that they would fight anyway. Rather than admit that religion is the cause, you will call them liars about their motives, and implicitly accuse them of being some sort of mindless killer drones who kill without reason.
I answered, you didn’t like the answer.
Of course; it’s obvious.
A rather pathetic counter argument.
I just gave other examples, not that I think you actually need them . You’d have to be outright brain damaged not to notice all the people slaughtering and oppressing each other in religions name. Not that there’s any evidence you would accept for that; I’m sure you’d never admit that ANY of the people who did evil deeds in the name of religion did so in religion’s name. But I’m sure you’d instantly give religion credit for any good done in it’s name.
And while no doubt some do falsely blame religion, many evil acts simply make no sense unless you assume a religious motivation. Why would someone kill a stranger, when doing so profits them in no way, and when there’s no other difference between them but religion ? Why would someone bother to force religious rules on people, save religion ? You are basically claiming that if religion was eliminated, people would robotically commit the same evils they do now in the name of religion, but that they wouldn’t even have that as a reason. That instead of Christians rounding up and killing Jews, they’d just grab some random people and kill them for no reason. That instead of imposing rules requiring prayer in the name of religion, they’d impose rules imposing prayer to nothing.
Religion was the motivation for a lot of went on. We had to fight the godless Communists after all; and since they were godless, ANYTHING was justified.
And a lot of what religion wasn’t driving, it was excusing.
And again, demonizing humans in order to make religion look better.
If someone claims religion is the cause of evil, they are a wild eyed lunatic. If they claim good is done in religion’s name, they are perfectly reasonable. Typical religious double standard. Or are you going to argue that good done in it’s name was done for some other reason ? Or is it only evil that doesn’t count ?
Possibly it doesn’t suit his purposes to do so. Can you explain, yet again, how you could possibly know this scenario to be the truth, to the exclusion of the possibility that you were merely insane? Try not to invoke an additional turtle at the bottom of the stack when you answer.
