[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
jesus christ…you’re still here?
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Matt 28:20 lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen 
[QUOTE=Suse]
I think the good people are going to feel the way they do and act the way they do regardless of religion also. A person who votes against abortion, counsels gay people to try and get over it, or suggests abstinance over responsible birth control in my view is acting on the way they instinctively feel about these issues, not what their religion tells them. Religion is only used as supporting documentation, so to speak. Or at least that’s been my experience, anyway.
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Religion has made it clear that abortion is Not An Option (is there a religion that approves of a woman’s right to choose?). Since the number of believers in the US is somewhere in the neighborhood of 75%, is it a fair assumption that a lot of that “opinion” on abortion was fed by outside sources?
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers]
His username is actually cosmoSdan (emphasis added). I made that mistake, too. Personally, I think “cosmodan” is a much better username, but what can you do?
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It’s a mistake that’s happened so often here that I hardly notice anymore. Thanks for mentioning it.
Alas I went with Cosmos because it’s actually my name rather than cosmo, although that is frequently an online nickname.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Religion has made it clear that abortion is Not An Option (is there a religion that approves of a woman’s right to choose?). Since the number of believers in the US is somewhere in the neighborhood of 75%, is it a fair assumption that a lot of that “opinion” on abortion was fed by outside sources?
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I am not Episcopalian (and too sleepy to look it up right now), but isn’t the Episcopal Church pro-choice? And what about groups like Catholics for Choice? I just don’t think it’s that cut-and-dried that religion spoon-feeds the evil views to their loyal sheep. Apparently your view and experience varies, and that’s ok with me.
[QUOTE=Suse]
I think the good people are going to feel the way they do and act the way they do regardless of religion also. A person who votes against abortion, counsels gay people to try and get over it, or suggests abstinance over responsible birth control in my view is acting on the way they instinctively feel about these issues, not what their religion tells them. Religion is only used as supporting documentation, so to speak. Or at least that’s been my experience, anyway.
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Certainly you could argue that people are religious quite possibly because their views do line up with their particular faith’s doctrine (if any), rather than the other way around. Take away the belief in God (or whoever), and they might very well still feel that abortion is murder, that homosexuality is bad, and so forth. There’s certainly people who believe those things who aren’t religious. But I would have to imagine that, at least in some cases, those good people who do or think those things may in part do so because they accept it either consciously or unconsciously as “part of the package”; they have certain matters of faith on which they have strong, honest belief, and while they might not necessarily agree with some things without religion, they’re connected under the roof of an organisation or doctrine and so are included by them.
At the very least, if you’re correct in most cases, then at least no religion would mean a higher chance that those people could come to reconsider their views. A less-supported viewpoint is one that’s going to be questioned more.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
This same principle applies to all sorts of things. Prejudice against gender and race persisted because it was a meme accepted by the majority. It’s just people and societies growing up.
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We’re talking about a concept that promises eternal life (and eternal damnation) for those who follow or fail to follow the rules. The motivation is much stronger than “simple” prejudice, if there is such a thing.
I think the reason for that internal process an important part of the discussion. Do you feel that way because you were told to feel that way from infancy by people you trusted or did you come to it through your daily life dealings?
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
The problem I have with this argument is that it’s right - but only so far. People who are judgemental, or bitchy, or genuinely uncaring are going to be all those things with or without religion. You could argue that whatever would make a person change could also change them to be better people in turn, but that’s true either way. Evil people are going to be evil if religion didn’t exist; it’s just one less outlet for it for them.
No, the problem isn’t the evil people, it’s the good people. The people who will, religion or not, be nice, caring types who honestly think what they do will help the world. And so they vote against abortion, or they council gay people to try and get over it, or they suggest abstinence over condom use. None of those things are unique to religion, of course, but I suspect people wouldn’t disagree all that much if I said without religion such things would be less common. The problem isn’t the evil people; they’ll be around doing what they do no matter what. The problem is the good people who go about their goodness in (IMHO) the wrong way.
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I’d agree with this. I have several wonderful relatives and friends who I disagree with on certain issues and the influence seems to be the teachings of their religious groups. I questioned one friend about the meaning of a certain passage from the Bible, trying to encourage her to tell me honestly what she thought rather than just repeat what she’d been told, the best she could manage was “Well, I don’t know”
My larger point was that people have to go through whatever growth process that works for them personally and that reflects on the growth of a society. That growth takes time, generations. Any of us can be guilty of doing what we thought was right only to discover it wasn’t so good after all. The nature of religion has changed and is still changing. I see the increased dialog between various believers and non believers as a real plus.
We have to try and learn how to communicate more effectively and it isn’t easy. People form emotional attachments to certain beliefs and traditions and won’t let go easily. I think it’s possible to address the principles of love, truth, compassion, responsibility, human rights, etc on common ground without directly challenging God belief. Most religion places a value on the truth and IMO facts have to overcome myth and tradition eventually.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Religion has made it clear that abortion is Not An Option (is there a religion that approves of a woman’s right to choose?). Since the number of believers in the US is somewhere in the neighborhood of 75%, is it a fair assumption that a lot of that “opinion” on abortion was fed by outside sources?
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I hope this link works. It’s a PDF
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Put the cuckoo back in the clock, Igor. Your knuckle-dragging non-participation in anything deeper than your little insult fest speaks volumes about you. Now go back to your rubber room. There’s a nice man with some thorazine waiting for you.
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Huh? What are you talking about? This is just my own personal form of protest. Why all the flak, sis? I’m protesting a dumb cunt for being both dumb and a cunt. Dumb cunts get way too much latitude, if you ask me. But hey, I’m doing my part. I don’t expect it to have much effect on dumb cunts like you, but how dare you bristle and my right to protest dumb cuntery.
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
The problem I have with this argument is that it’s right - but only so far. People who are judgemental, or bitchy, or genuinely uncaring are going to be all those things with or without religion.
No, the problem isn’t the evil people, it’s the good people. The people who will, religion or not, be nice, caring types who honestly think what they do will help the world.
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Nice post. I must be the exception to the rule because when I was young, and I thought only of myself, I took many things through violence and judged many to be inferior and therefor easy pickings, and conducted my actions accordingly . Mostly in a very bad way, I am sad to say. It wasn’t until I really, and I mean really, listened to what Jesus was all about, that I changed my heart and took His words to heart, that I began to see the truth of life. And death.
RT , thanks for sharing your thoughts. As always they bring peace. I hope everyone can see them for what they are.
Would somebody please tell me which side is representing Christianity? It’s kind of hard to tell from the posts.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I hope this link works. It’s a PDF
[/QUOTE]
You may have missed Kalhoun’s earlier argument, where it is established that the word “religion” is to be used to describe only knuckle dragging Christian literalists (this is an interpretation - she may in fact mean any literalist) and that the word cannot be used to describe the United Church of Christ (a pro-choice denomination) because they don’t count. No word on whether her specialized use of the word “religion” is also a form of protest.
(If we all define religion as narrowly as Kalhoun does, this wouldn’t be much of an argument around here).
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
Certainly you could argue that people are religious quite possibly because their views do line up with their particular faith’s doctrine (if any), rather than the other way around. Take away the belief in God (or whoever), and they might very well still feel that abortion is murder, that homosexuality is bad, and so forth. There’s certainly people who believe those things who aren’t religious. But I would have to imagine that, at least in some cases, those good people who do or think those things may in part do so because they accept it either consciously or unconsciously as “part of the package”; they have certain matters of faith on which they have strong, honest belief, and while they might not necessarily agree with some things without religion, they’re connected under the roof of an organisation or doctrine and so are included by them.
At the very least, if you’re correct in most cases, then at least no religion would mean a higher chance that those people could come to reconsider their views. A less-supported viewpoint is one that’s going to be questioned more.
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My own experience was that I joined a church for a particular reason and found myself more likely to accept what they told me. After all they were my group, they were good people, why would I doubt them? I joined because a certain thing resonated with me and was meaningful, and once in I was less likely to question things. I think a lot of people share that emotional attachment to the group and it’s beliefs.
It takes time to get people to realize that good people and long held traditions can still be wrong about some of the details. Jesus even advises against following the traditions of men. The opposite effect is that people get worried that if they reject certain beliefs they will have to reject it all, or that they will be rejected by a supportive group they value. {which indeed happens}
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I hope this link works. It’s a PDF
[/QUOTE]
Interesting. Thanks.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Would somebody please tell me which side is representing Christianity? It’s kind of hard to tell from the posts.
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I’m still waiting for some druids to turn up, and really get this party rocking!
[QUOTE=Suse]
I am not Episcopalian (and too sleepy to look it up right now), but isn’t the Episcopal Church pro-choice? And what about groups like Catholics for Choice? I just don’t think it’s that cut-and-dried that religion spoon-feeds the evil views to their loyal sheep. Apparently your view and experience varies, and that’s ok with me.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I checked out that PDF link and there are quite a few exceptions for health and welfare of mother and child, and the hindus allow women to incorporate their entire situation (not strictly health) in making their decision. So yes, it’s a little more relaxed than I’d thought. However, US Catholics (the group I’m most familiar with) are still down on it.
I don’t necessarily think it’s evil views being turned into common thought in all cases (though the majority of religions have perpetuated the marginalization of gays – and that view spills over and morphs into government attitudes that affect me and mine). It’s more like entrapping their own (as with the condom and HIV cocktail thing) with the church’s stand on issues that really are life and death. People become afraid to do what’s best for their own lives, largely out of fear they’re not going to make it to heaven. This goes beyond the basic tenets of being kind to others. This is control on a level that causes real harm.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Huh? What are you talking about? This is just my own personal form of protest. Why all the flak, sis? I’m protesting a dumb cunt for being both dumb and a cunt. Dumb cunts get way too much latitude, if you ask me. But hey, I’m doing my part. I don’t expect it to have much effect on dumb cunts like you, but how dare you bristle and my right to protest dumb cuntery.
[/QUOTE]
Too late. You’ve gone way beyond making a point. You’ve planted yourself firmly in the Creepy Fucker column. (shudder!) You make children run away.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
We’re talking about a concept that promises eternal life (and eternal damnation) for those who follow or fail to follow the rules. The motivation is much stronger than “simple” prejudice, if there is such a thing.
[/QUOTE]
Is it? I’m not so sure. At some point objecting to prejudice would be risking your own life. That’s the one we’re living now, not some uncertain eternal one.
A lot of people are taught religion by their parents but a lot of those reject it as well. I think the question of religion and God hangs over our society. Very few would be free from wondering, “Does God Exist?” Lot’s of people encounter religion along the way, perhaps in some personal crisis or just the influence of others. People really do have profoundly moving experiences and religion can provide an explanation they find meaningful and acceptable. That’s all part of the internal process. Daily experience builds on it and varies from person to person. That would be the daily life dealings.
I happen to think the internal process is inherent in humanity and will continue.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Would somebody please tell me which side is representing Christianity? It’s kind of hard to tell from the posts.
[/QUOTE]
I’ll give you a hint: It’s not me.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Huh? What are you talking about? This is just my own personal form of protest. Why all the flak, sis? I’m protesting a dumb cunt for being both dumb and a cunt. Dumb cunts get way too much latitude, if you ask me. But hey, I’m doing my part. I don’t expect it to have much effect on dumb cunts like you, but how dare you bristle and my right to protest dumb cuntery.
[/QUOTE]
This reminds me of that line from Snow White.