Because some people feel that to be polite or respectful is taking away from their own position. Just using DT as an example since he’s shown up here, if he even uttered a simple “I see what you are saying.” it would detract from his point of the opposite side being utter idiocy. And that in turn, means he’s not being true to himself.
In my own life, I can NEVER have a conversation with my mother regarding religion if their is a hypothetical attached to God. If I begin with “So if God didn’t exist…” she won’t hear me out because her mind refuses to go there at all. I see this same position constantly on the boards, shown by both sides and I’ve always been baffled over how being respectful to someone else somehow diminishes you. Generally speaking.
All the time on this board and all the other threads that require some “EVIDENCE” for someone to make a claim about something, and yet we throw that rule out the window for anything labeled ‘Religion’.
I thought it was about ‘Fighting Ignorance’, not making nice nice with the gullible.
And yet all it would take is just a little bit of proof that god exists and all us unbelievers will happily slam our heads repeatably into the ground and grovel like the rest of the theists as we worship the homicidal maniac who apparently loves us so much. “Joy!” [/Stimpy]
We know you’re a dick, but God can’t as he doesn’t exist!
PS. I “try” to avoid being a dick, but religion topics make me see red. A difference of opinion is one thing, but I can’t abide deliberate blindness and stupidity. I have grown steadily more intolerant since I’ve been working in the Middle East and have seen the amount of time and potential wasted in the worship of imaginary figures.
Well, taking the world population of 6 billion and figuring 2 billion Christians, 1 billion Muslims, several hundred million Hindus, and quite a few Buddhists with an occasional animist and a handful of neo-pagans, we are looking at a bit more than half of the world holding religious beliefs. In the various (unscientific and self-reported) polls that have appeared in IMHO over the years, we find a bit more than half the responents claiming no religious belief.
(If we make “the world” the U.S. for the purpose of looking at the location of the majority of Dopers, then the slighly more than half of Dopers who do not believe is not actually a mirror image of the proportions in U.S. society where beleivers tend to run between 70% and 90% depending on how the poll is conducted.)
Which would kind of imply that those religious people who use the internet, and who do not like to question their long-held religious beliefs, tend to avoid the Straightdope web site! Unless they are ‘smart’ enough to argue convincingly( they must feel!) for their cause.
Way too much conclusion for the limited information available.
Given that this place has an enforced policy of not deliberately insulting other posters, it tends to attract posters of many marginalized groups in the U.S., providing a place where they may post without being harrassed. It says nothing about any “minority” on this board that a larger number of their opposite counterparts are attracted to it.
It also tends to change over time. At one time, we had a much higher percentage of folks on the political right, a fairly high percentage of neo-pagans, a few very left-wing/socialist types. As posters come and go, each of those groups may (or may not) also see an increase in numbers.
But he doesn’t see what they’re saying. Nor do I. The reason I don’t sound like Der Trihs isn’t that I don’t believe the things he says (on this subject, not generally) but that I find saying them to be counterproductive. I won’t pretend to understand the other side when I honestly don’t.
But the proselytizing is everywhere. You cannot escape it in the US. It hits you in the face every single day. Where religion provides “comfort” for some, it causes unspeakable pain and suffering for others (including it’s own followers!). To think rationally is to open yourself up to accusations of Unpatriotic Behavior. Religion pits parents against children. It stands in the way of scientific progress. It serves as nothing but a roadblock to medical discovery. It promotes poverty. It dehumanizes women and marginalizes gays. It desexualizes. It confuses those it claims to guide. Is a little empty “comfort” a fair trade for all the bad that stems from religion?
Ah, bad choice of phrasing on my part then. What I was aiming for was nothing more than a polite (if nothing else) “Thank you for your point of view.” or “Well will have to agree to disagree.” or something. Anything that at least allows your opponent (for lack of a better word) some dignity. Even what you describe, just not saying stuff, will work. I mean, I don’t think it’s necessary obviously, and almost always counterproductive, to come into any even tangentially related thread about religion just to tell people their beliefs are stupid / silly / plain old wrong or whatever.
What’s the point? Has anybody ever been argued out of their religion? I lost religion when I was 10 because I never really believed in it, and it’s just not part of my nature. I can’t say I fully understand how otherwise logical people keep a belief in God (let alone the people who believe all the dogma of a given religion), but clearly it happens.
They have faith, which as I understand it is the ability to hold a belief without any evidence. I don’t have it; they do. Maybe it’s genetic. In any case, it’s useless arguing with them because, by definition, their belief isn’t based on logic. Most of my friends have some kind of faith; I don’t try to change them.
Religious institutions, on the other hand, aren’t really about cosmological and ontological beliefs; they’re about controlling people. Fuck 'em.
And all those bad things happen without religion as well.
And when that happens, what? Since your ideological whipping boy is gone, do you blame rationalists? Do you say that child abuse or murder or ethnic cleansing or drunk driving by atheists was rational? No. You put the blame where it belongs- on the perpetrator.
Using religion as a blameworthiness factor for things you don’t like in the world is adding a degree of separation, that’s all.
I’m not talking about the bad things that happen in the world. I’m talking about the bad things that happen in the name of god. They can ONLY be attributed to religion. You cannot blame the spread of AIDS in Africa due to religionists forbidding their followers to use them to anything BUT religion. You cannot blame the mutilation of genitalia for religious reasons on anything BUT religion. You cannot blame a parent disowning a child for marrying outside the family religion (or for (gasp!) not believing in god) on anything BUT religion.
Like I said…shit happens. This is god-based shit. It happens because of religion.
I think your definition of faith is a good working definition. Except that I find for me it’s not a matter of believing in any specifics (mythology, dogma, etc.) but more an inability to assign a “zero” truth value to the concept of God.
If it were simply a matter of evidence based belief, I’d still be an atheist. Any other conclusion would just seem unwarranted. But I demonstrated pretty conclusively to myself a while ago that I’ve always “felt” God as a true concept, and that faith is not something I can change. Belief just seems irrelevant.
I agree wholeheartedly with the opinion and sentiment expressed in your last sentence, Baldwin.
[sup]1[/sup][sub]It’s probably not genetic. ;)[/sub]
Oh, there’s PLENTY of blame to go around on that one.
As for the others, without doubt religion is a causative factor, perhaps even the deciding one. However, it is impossible to lump so many things together without also sweeping up events and occurrences where religion is the excuse and not the reason, and had religon not existed, another would have been created.
In no way do I want to put forward the position that religion, as a concept, is uninvolved or blameless as a negative world mover.
I do, however, strongly deny the assertion that religion or any specific religion is a prime cause or the encouraging factor.
But if another excuse was put forth it might be easier to refute the validity of the excuse if it wasn’t based upon some fantasy that the majority clung to.
Ah, but religion dupes people into behaving in certain ways with promises of something that there is absolutely no evidence of. It creates a selfish mindset that causes people to follow silly or dangerous commands in* order to achieve something for themselves.* It causes people to use poor judgement about their daily doings because they’re afraid of a punishment for which no evidence exists. Without religion, people would have the freedom to make choices based on what we know about the world right now. It would free them to make the world a better place instead of holding it back based on…nothing.
