On the SUV debate (kind of long)

Great Debates
41

A full size van is pretty high off the ground. It will also weigh in close to the same.

Cars being “ran over” by SUVs isn’t really a problem. Even if it did happen (which I highly doubt) it wouldn’t crush the car like your thinking. Yes, if you get smacked by an SUV and your in a small car, your not going to come out well whatever the case. Your the one who chooses to drive a small car. Figure it out, there are downsides to a compact car. If anything happens to you because someone else chooses to drive a LARGE car. Its your fault, not the person who’s driving the bigger car. The solution isn’t to make everyone drive small car, or big cars. Its a choice you make.

Only you make the choice to decide what type of auto to drive. I haven’t heard people who drive motorcycles bitching because they feel unsafe around cars. Have you? Do you think they have a logical argument?

Its almost like some people have the idea that they are never at fault. This is the real world, grow up! You make your own decisions.

Now about that link with people “tagging” SUVs with liberal BS bumper stickers. That REALLY pisses me off. If someone ever did that to my car and I caught them. They would get the shit beat out of them and a bumper sticker stuck to their face.

42

Opps dbl post :frowning:

43

Bah! I park right in the middle of two compact spaces all the time. Two of the little spots are actually the perfect size to insure no one will ding the doors of my rather large car (Bonneville SSEi).

I am not doing it because of any problems with my I.Q. I do it because I think it’s rediculous to make these little spaces that my car won’t fit into. Why don’t they make SUV/Big car spaces that you aren’t allowed into while they are at it? It’s silly. Make a universal space that everyone fits into and thats that.

44

Here is another interesting link (admittedly anti-SUV site). While the bias of the site is obvious, their sources seem to be legit (and they cite them which is kind of nice).

The most interesting statistic that I found was:

Finally, ** Mesopotamis** let’s revisit the choice issue. My understanding of your posts is that because I choose to drive a small car, and because that choice puts me at risk because others choose to drive massive cars, that whatever happens to me is just too damn bad.

I am sorry but that is a load of crap. There are many examples of behavior (or choice) being limited because it unnecessarily endangers society at large. Consider the following:

[ol]
[li]Non-Smoking areas.[/li][li]Seatbelt Laws.[/li][li]Speed limits.[/li][li]Laws governing the age one must be to purchase tobacco or alcohol.[/li][/ol]

To name only a few, shooting from the hip as it were.

If anyone has evidence that these vehicles are not dangerous to society as a whole, please present it. I feel that I have been pretty darn careful in this tread to provide credible evidence for the claims that I am making and also to state when I am only sharing anecdotal experiences. In return, it seems that the general sentiment (from the pro-SUV camp) is “you are wrong, I like my SUV and if you choose to drive a sensible car that is suited to your urban environment and I kill you, tough”. I am sorry, but this will not (IMHO) wash in a “Great Debate” forum.

Again, I throw down the gauntlet: Anyone that wishes to cite a credible source that will refute my claims will be listened to with respect.

45

Please allow me to chime in, here. (Yes, I’m new.)
SUVs are just transportation. No more, no less.
It’s the drivers who create the problems.
I (and probably most others here) live in a city where the only requirements to obtain a drivers license are:
A. a pulse
B. the ability to guess the correct answers to a few questions, and
C: the ability to drive around a parking lot and not kill any orange cones.

I don’t think that SUV drivers are all ignorant of the bulkiness of their vehicles. The ones that are ignorant usually become inverted, sooner or later, due to the dynamics of their vehicles.
On the contrary, I think they take advantage of their bulkiness. They use it to bully drivers of smaller cars. I drive in Atlanta every day. I see it all the time.

I am still waiting for some enterprising D.A. to charge some SUV driver with “Assualt with a motor vehicle” or something similar, when the SUV has run all over a smaller car due to tailgating.
I will applaud such an action.

I have no problem with anyone driving whatever they want, can afford, and can afford to fuel.
On the subject of gas mileage, my new GMC Sonoma (mini pickup) gets 23 MPG, highway. Not that much different from the Explorer stats, posted earlier. Pretty much run-of-the-mill, unless you choose to drive an economy car.

As for emissions, there’s not a nickel’s worth of difference between the dirtiest and cleanest of the new vehicles.
They all emit exhaust that is nearly clean enough to breathe. Just one worn out 77 Nova will make hundreds of times the amount of pollutants as anything being sold today.

Please don’t misunderstand. I don’t like SUVs. I think they’re ugly (Personal opinion). I don’t like having their headlights shining in my rearview mirror. (And no, I’m not afraid to give the more obnoxious drivers a “brake check” if they’re on my bumper.)

But it’s not the vehicles. It’s the drivers.

46

Yup…this is the really the point. The rest of us are subsidizing SUV owners. SUV owners are on welfare and it is a pernicious sort of welfare because they don’t even often know they are on welfare and even have the gall to complain about people on the more conventional form of welfare who at least already have the self-awareness of their state imposed upon them by society.

People who “choose” to drive SUVs are choosing to be subsidized in overt and less overt ways by the rest of us. If they want to make the choice to drive an SUV, the costs should be internalized so they have to pay for their silly choice!

(Erl…At least I got to say something before I’m outta here…Thanks for cluing me in.)

47

Hey, if I’m an “SUV welfare mom”, does that mean I get a new one every year or so to add to my household, regardless of whether or not I can afford one? And where the hell are my gasoline stamps (which I can’t use for booze, dammit!)?

48

Kilt-wearin’ man I must say that I am a little taken aback here by the sentiments that you are putting forth. I am completely at a loss as to where you are getting the idea that I am wanting to take choice away from others, or that I am making the binary (if you will forgive the word play) assumption that people that drive small cars are good and people that drive SUV’s are bad.

As I seem to be having trouble communicating this, I will try to again. I believe the following to be true:
[ol]
[li]Driving a Small (compact) or mid sized (sedan) car is (except in specific cases) the best choice for an Urban or Suburban environment.[/li][li]If a SUV hits someone in a compact or a sedan vehicle, the person in that smaller vehicle generally comes out on the worse end of things.[/li]
Therefore…

[li]A person that chooses to drive an SUV is limiting the choice of others in a way that is not true the other way around.[/li][li]How it is ok for this to be true is worth talking about, and those that drive vehicles that are actually appropriate to the environment in which they live have a right to ask for an explanation.[/li][/ol]

49

Debaser: *Bah! I park right in the middle of two compact spaces all the time. Two of the little spots are actually the perfect size to insure no one will ding the doors of my rather large car (Bonneville SSEi).

I am not doing it because of any problems with my I.Q. I do it because I think it’s rediculous to make these little spaces that my car won’t fit into. Why don’t they make SUV/Big car spaces that you aren’t allowed into while they are at it?*

Well, I take your word for it that there are no problems with your I.Q., but in that case I’m a little bit puzzled as to how you haven’t yet figured out that the reason they make little compact spaces is so that more cars will be able to fit into the parking lot. Making big SUV-size spaces would have the opposite result. If there’s always oodles of empty spaces where you park, I can’t see why anyone would object to your taking up two of them; but if the lot gets full, then you have unfairly hogged what ought to be somebody else’s space. In other words, trying to avoid getting your big car’s doors dinged is more important to you than somebody else’s getting a place to park.

This is exactly the sort of inconsiderate and selfish “my needs are more important than yours” attitude that gets many people so riled up at the owners of resource-guzzling cars. I personally sympathize with people who need an extra-large or extra-sturdy vehicle because they have lots to lug around or do a lot of driving on bad roads or off-road, and I’m glad if an SUV turns out to be the perfect solution for them. But it is a resource guzzler, and I expect them to realize that to some extent, they’re solving their own problems by “hogging the commons”.

Everybody “hogs the commons” somewhat in one way or another (with me it’s the library :)), so nobody should get all indignant when it’s pointed out that their extra resource use is being subsidized by other people. And it’s not particularly nice to respond along the lines of “Tough, that’s what suits me and that’s what I’m going to do whether you like it or not.” Eventually, when the subsidizers get sufficiently fed up with such responses, they take the commons away. When Debaser and his ilk end up having to pay double for parking in two places, or maybe just having all big cars banned from parking lots, it’ll be too late to start being considerate of the other guy’s needs then.

50

Yea! Go git 'em, jshore. :smiley:

Now, on with the show.

Man, I agree with this almost 100%… right up to the point where I tend to feel that even though there are stupid people, we don’t have to give them better tools with which to be stupid. You know what I mean?

Sure, hey, I get pissed at some of the BMW and Audi drivers in my area, too, zipping in and out of traffic, trying to bully people around, cutting in and cutting off (and I have never stated that this phenomenon is exclusive to drivers of SUVs no matter how much they want me to so they can flame me for it)… but they don’t possess a 13 ton vehicle with a bumper level right around where I keep my (relatively precious) head, so I tend to cut them a little more slack. Yeah, it is a shame that there are so many gun deaths each year, but thank Eris the second amendment doesn’t apply to missles, bazookas, and grenade launchers, know what I mean?

Now, yes, the above was a little bit of hyperbole (and saying “little bit” was intended as irony within a statement about exaggeration before anyone jumps on that too ;)), but the principle is practiced all over society: we are willing to assume some risks to life, limb, environment, and ideological purity, but we also reserve the right to draw the line somewhere, and if enough people feel that SUVs are on the wrong side of that line, well, a certain feline has mentioned that it has a leathery teat for you (not “you” you, but an “everyone” you).

Now, SUVs aren’t the only deadly vehicle on the road, nor are they the only vehicle I cannot see around, nor are they the only gas guzzlers. Semis, of course, are a bit bulkier and of course harder to see around. But I don’t have a problem with semi drivers because they don’t act like assholes. I respect truck drivers, and go out of my way to be courteous to them on the highway. These professional drivers (and smaller truck drivers, too) often are exceptional drivers, very polite, and if they are going the same speed as you I trust them implictly to drive behind whether I can see around them or not. I don’t sweat it when a semi is behind me, either.

I have a problem with SUVs as daily passenger commute vehicles that aren’t used for carpooling. And as far as one poster’s mention that they don’t always have to have a passenger in the vehicle with them, well, duh. But if they were really used for commuting that often I think it would be damn likely that we would see as many SUVs with passengers as we would without them… that’s just odds at work. Some of them won’t have any ever, some won’t have any because they’ve dropped off the kiddies, some will have their passengers with them. However, this last group seems to be conspicuously absent. And yes, I look.

When they are used frequently for carpooling I have a problem with them if they aren’t being used for actual offroading, or camping, or some equivalent effort that people here mention where a minivan wouldn’t serve the same purpose. Again with the odds, why don’t I see SUVs towing shit behind them? Why I don’t I see ski racks loaded, kayaks on top, camping gear spread out in the back? Conspicuously absent, time and time again.

In short, yes, I expect much from people with big bullying vehicles. I expect my neighbors to purchase stereos that have large volume ability, but I also expect them to use that responsibly. I am not about banning or outlawing SUVs, but I really think they are purchased at inappropriate times and not used in a responsible manner. And, fuck it, I have something to say about that, so here I am.

51

Yeah, thats prety much it.

Let me make this simple for you, and some others that don’t understand…

One person drive big suv. Other person drive small car. Cars hit eachother. Person in small car get hurt worse then person in **big[b/] suv.

Its not fair. Guess what? Lifes not fair. You really think its the person in the big suvs fault? You chose what you drive. If someone else happens to be in a bigger car then you. Big *ucking deal. You could apply this same logic to allot more situtaions in life. Your pretty warped if you think can and should be fair and balanced. Its not allways that way. Welcome to the real world.

52

Mesopotamis, first I want to state that I find your sarcastic tone to be both unseemly and something that I feel that I (and others) who are trying to get you to clarify your points do not deserve.

That said, let us take your logic our of the SUV context and apply it to other areas.

[ol]
[li]I (as a cook) choose to place meat in a vegetarian’s food (because I really like meat and this is America), well life isn’t fair. Too damn bad.[/li][li]I choose to play my music at ear-splitting levels at all hours of the night and you loose your job because I have kept you awake and your performance and said job deteriorates. Again, too damn bad.[/li][/ol]

Get the idea? There are a host of areas and issues where individual choice is limited because it threatens the greater good of society. Again (I believe that this has been said by me earlier) I will state that this is such a case. I challenge you to refute this with at least some sort of facts (this is (after all) a debate), rather than resorting to cheap irony.

53

Really? I hate minivans for the same reasons as SUVs, and don’t see why anyone would bother making a distinction between the two of them nuisance-wise, except for comparing their potential damage to other vehicles.

54

I’m of the anti-SUV camp due to many of the reasons already mentioned by fellow campers here. I just find them - for the average Joe - completely unneccessary. I also dedicate much of my loyalty to the enviromental cause. I don’t like this arguement, “well if you actually DO use your SUV to do some off-roading, that’s fine.” Nobody seems to have a problem with this. Where I come from, off-roading is a very destructive form of entertainment. “Let’s go out and destroy some of the countryside including animal habitat for fun, Jeb!”.

55

If you have difficulty driving because of SUVs then perhaps you’re just a bad driver. I drive a Saturn and I don’t feel uncomfortable around large trucks or SUVs.
Marc

56

I live in a pretty rural area, and the wife drives a Jeep Grand Cherokee, I have an F150.

Both of these vehicles are probably a little more that would be necessary for the average day. But, we purchased a little more capability, based on the (occasional) need to haul a little more, or drive to work after an enormous lake effect snowstorm.

But, it’s really hard for me to figure out how some folks need to drive around in dual-wheeled pickup, with a club cab, and V10 engine. If you think a Suburban is big, you need to check one of these out.

We know a woman who drives one to work every day, about 12 miles, by herself. Try having one of those smack your Civic.

57

See, this is what I get for using satire and sarcasm in my previous post. Obviously my point completely whooshed Mesopotamis. :rolleyes:

58

Yes.

This is exactly the sort of inconsiderate and selfish “my needs are more important than yours” attitude that gets many people so riled up at the owners of resource-guzzling cars.

This thread is about SUV owners. If there were a thread villifying library users I would expect many of you to come forward and say “Tough, that’s what suits me and that’s what I’m going to do whether you like it or not.” As well you should.

As far as banning big cars from parking lots goes. Well, good luck passing that legislation :smiley:

59

Oops, sloppy quoting. I didn’t mean for that sentance after my “yes” to be there.

60

This is kind of a hijack, but…
Responsible offroading is not destructive. Around here it’s usually on old logging or mining roads, and always on designated trails. We also follow the principles of Tread Lightly

So please don’t stereotype off-road drivers.

*Note: Tread Lightly’s home page is under construction, so this came from a different sight. It’s the same principles, though.