On the Topic of Transgenders

[Broomstick]

@inscrutable

The first point is, “Human sexuality is an objective biological binary trait: ‘XY’ and ‘XX’ are genetic markers of health – not genetic markers of a disorder,” with the purpose of male and female being “the reproduction and flourishing of our species.” It notes “exceedingly rare exceptions of sexual differentiation,” which are disorders but do not represent a “third sex.”

The number I hear quoted is about 1 in 2000 births, or about 0.05%. Which, yes, in one sense is rare but that’s about 3,500,000 people in the world today which is not a small number of people.

Should we just toss those 3.5 million on the trash heap? Aren’t they also human beings?

The statement added that self-awareness develops over time and can be “derailed” by the experiences and information a child receives from infancy forward. Further, no matter what sex a person imagines themselves to be, they remain either a biological male or a biological female.

Unless they’re one of the 3.5 million intersex people…

And yes, I think most transgender people ARE aware that they have sex chromosomes and what those are. They aren’t under the illusion that hormones and surgery are going to change their chromosomes.

Here’s the problem as I see it: you’ve got a group of people with a serious problem that leads to extremely high levels of things like self-harm and suicide. It doesn’t matter if that problem is biological or psychological or a combination, the question is how to we make these folks function better and reduce the harm/death rate?

Fourth, “Puberty is not a disease and puberty-blocking hormones can be dangerous” by inhibiting growth and fertility, according to the position statement.

Well, yes… but killing yourself because you are monstrously unhappy is also dangerous.

And puberty may not be a disease but it can go wrong - it can come too early (which is one reason puberty-blockers were developed), or the hormone mix can be wrong (one of my fellow students in high school had congenital high testosterone, requiring life-long medication for a variety of reasons. As she said, getting her beard removed was among the least of the problems), or a bunch of other things can be out of whack. Not everyone has a normal body, a normal mind, or a normal puberty.

NO ONE is suggesting that puberty-blockers be handed out like candy or that kids expressing signs of being transgender should accommodated without first some serious therapy and careful examination of the situation at hand.

According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the statement says, “as many as 98 percent of gender confused boys and 88 percent of gender confused girls eventually accept their biological sex after naturally passing through puberty.”

And that’s fine - no one is disputing that the transgender are a small minority of the population. But what about that 2% to 12% of “confused” children who turn out to NOT accept their biological sex? What’s the best course for those people?

The sixth point is that “children who use puberty blockers to impersonate the opposite sex will require cross-sex hormones in late adolescence. Cross-sex hormones are associated with dangerous health risks including but not limited to high blood pressure, blood clots, stroke and cancer."

So are birth control pills but we don’t seem to have a problem putting most women of child-bearing age on them for a couple decades.

Risks can be managed, the whole purpose of having these kids under a doctor’s supervision is to avoid excessive doses and monitor them for side effects.

The seventh point states, “Rates of suicide are 20 times greater among adults who use cross-sex hormones and undergo sex reassignment surgery, even in Sweden which is among the most LGBQT–affirming countries.”

What’s the suicide rate among transgender people who aren’t allowed to transition?

This is like arguing that we shouldn’t treat depression because some X percentage of people who have gone through treatment for their depression commit suicide later. Yeah, that’s a negative, but are people with depression who aren’t treated even more likely to kill themselves than those who get treatment?

[Broomstick]

@DerekMichaels00

You know what? I’m now trans-tall. I’m a short guy trapped in a tall guy’s body!

I had a short-guy friend who used to say things like that. He’d also say things like “I’m actually six feet tall, I’ve just been under a lot of pressure lately.” The difference between him and you is that he was funny and clearly poking fun at both himself and stupid biased attitudes.

There actually ARE people who are so dissatisfied with their shortness they undergo surgical procedures with lengthy follow-up therapies to make their arms and legs physically longer, granting them additional height. Are those people attempting a scam? Are they posing as taller people?

[Lamia]

@inscrutable

The seventh point states, “Rates of suicide are 20 times greater among adults who use cross-sex hormones and undergo sex reassignment surgery, even in Sweden which is among the most LGBQT–affirming countries.”

@Broomstick

What’s the suicide rate among transgender people who aren’t allowed to transition?

Good question. inscrutable did not provide a link to his source, but I think I know the Swedish study it was referring to (Dhejne et al. 2011, full text available via PLoS One). I remember it because in a previous thread a poster tried to cite it as evidence that sex reassignment surgery did not improve the lives of transgender people. However, as I pointed out then, the authors of this study explicitly warned against drawing such a conclusion, because they were comparing post-op transsexuals to the general population and NOT to pre-op transsexuals:

@Dhejne et al.

It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment.

(Emphasis added.)

The conclusion of this study was basically that sex reassignment surgery isn’t a panacea and that post-op transsexuals would probably benefit from better long-term follow-up care.

[Arcite]

@raventhief

I imagine in years past, there were similar feelings among those who knew that blacks were subhuman, women were too frail minded to handle the vote, and homosexuals were just damaged headcases.

I don’t think women should be allowed to vote and I think homosexuality belongs in the closet, so… 2 out of 3 ain’t bad.

@iiandyiiii

If you want to totally ignore the science, as well as any sense of decency and compassion, then feel free. You can feel this way if you want. But if you say hateful things about people who have done you no wrong, then expect to be criticized for it.

I haven’t seen any “science” “proving” that men are actually women, nor women men.

@tomndebb

I don’t actually know of anyone who has been shunned from polite society for holding a belief on the matter.

I have seen justified ridicule heaped on bigots who called a special, one-day session of a legislature to propose and vote on a measure to prevent anyone in their state from enacting anti-discrimination laws.

Apparently Curt Schilling was fired from ESPN for making an “anti-trans” comment. I guess that’s not completely being shunned from polite society, but it’s a start. I’m sure my employers wouldn’t take too kindly to my being “anti-trans” either.

[raventhief]

f all that’s. …seriously? Women don’t vote and gays are in the closet?

[DerekMichaels00]

@inscrutable

Other than the few cases of genetic mutation/abnormality, what other actual"science" is there? A few confirmation-bias brain scans don’t prove anything.

Do you think that, maybe, doctors and organizations involved in transformations might have a financial incentive to be proponents of their “science”?

perfectly said!!

Here’s the problem as I see it: you’ve got a group of people with a serious problem that leads to extremely high levels of things like self-harm and suicide. It doesn’t matter if that problem is biological or psychological or a combination, the question is how to we make these folks function better and reduce the harm/death rate?

There are no noble lies.

There actually ARE people who are so dissatisfied with their shortness they undergo surgical procedures with lengthy follow-up therapies to make their arms and legs physically longer, granting them additional height. Are those people attempting a scam? Are they posing as taller people?

The efficacy is low, the recovery excruciatingly painful, and only adds 2-3 inches. And even then, the people who do that surgery don’t just become “tall” as opposed to “short.”

[iiandyiiii]

@DerekMichaels00

perfectly said!!

Perfectly ignoring the science. You’ve got science and compassion on the one hand, and ignorance and hateful statements about people who don’t harm anyone on the other.

Why not choose science and compassion?

[Moriarty]

@Arcite

I agree with DerekMichaels00. It’s ridiculous that our society seriously and with a straight face treats a man who feels like he’s “really a woman” as an actual woman, or vice versa, and not only that, treats people who are not on board with this as the ones who are beyond the pale and shunned from polite society. It’s like being able to see the Matrix, with everyone else around you living in some kind of bizarre alternate reality.

DerekMichaels00 invoked God and his own pervasive insecurities about his ability to find a mate to explain his horrid attitude towards transgendered people. Pray tell, why do you feel that a person should not be entitled to live their life free of interference, as long as they aren’t harming others? Why does it offend you that there are those who live differently than you?

[raventhief]

@DerekMichaels00

perfectly said!!

There are no noble lies.

The efficacy is low, the recovery excruciatingly painful, and only adds 2-3 inches. And even then, the people who do that surgery don’t just become “tall” as opposed to “short.”

you’ve looked into it huh?

Sorry, God put you into the wrong body. Deal with it.

[Arcite]

@Moriarty

DerekMichaels00 invoked God and his own pervasive insecurities about his ability to find a mate to explain his horrid attitude towards transgendered people. Pray tell, why do you feel that a person should not be entitled to live their life free of interference, as long as they aren’t harming others? Why does it offend you that there are those who live differently than you?

If they want to dress as the opposite sex behind closed doors, and think of themselves internally as the opposite sex, I’m not advocating breaking their doors down (or persecuting them for thoughtcrime, should the technology to do so develop.) The rest of us shouldn’t be forced to live our lives as though we buy into their delusions.

[Moriarty]

@Arcite

If they want to dress as the opposite sex behind closed doors, and think of themselves internally as the opposite sex, I’m not advocating breaking their doors down (or persecuting them for thoughtcrime, should the technology to do so develop.) The rest of us shouldn’t be forced to live our lives as though we buy into their delusions.

How is letting them live in peace “buy[ing] into their delusions”?.

If a person with long hair, wearing a dress, with breasts, makeup, and ostensibly feminine features enters the ladies room to pee, what business is it of anyone else’s if she has a penis or not, presuming she isn’t bothering anybody?

If she is at work and doing a good job, shouldn’t she be entitled to the same treatment as anybody else, instead of being fired if somehow the topic of her genitalia comes up?

Like the OP, nobody is suggesting that you need to befriend, socialize with, date, or otherwise become affiliated with a transgendered (or, for that matter, gay, Black, Latino, or whatever else offends you) person. Just leave them alone, and (provided they aren’t harming anybody else) respect their desire to live as a fully fledged member of society.

[oft_wears_hats]

@Arcite

If they want to dress as the opposite sex behind closed doors, and think of themselves internally as the opposite sex, I’m not advocating breaking their doors down (or persecuting them for thoughtcrime, should the technology to do so develop.) The rest of us shouldn’t be forced to live our lives as though we buy into their delusions.

Do you feel the same way about people with androgen insensitivity syndrome? Should they be made to dress as men since they are genetically male?

[crowmanyclouds]

@DerekMichaels00

Nature {…} did not make men “feel like a women, {…}”

How do you know this?

IOW CITE!

CMC fnord!

[Guinastasia]

Victor Emmanuel III paved the way for fascism to take over in Italy. Is that really someone you want to associate with? More proof that short men are disgusting creatures.

[tomndebb]

@Moriarty

DerekMichaels00 invoked God and his own pervasive insecurities about his ability to find a mate to explain his horrid attitude towards transgendered people.

If you want to attack the poster, go open a thread in The BBQ Pit. Leave the personal attacks out of Great Debates

[ /Moderating ]

[tomndebb]

@Arcite

If they want to dress as the opposite sex behind closed doors, and think of themselves internally as the opposite sex, I’m not advocating breaking their doors down (or persecuting them for thoughtcrime, should the technology to do so develop.) The rest of us shouldn’t be forced to live our lives as though we buy into their delusions.

This is nonsense. Unless you are going around making people drop their pants or skirts, you are not going to know who is transgender, to begin with. The efforts to avoid discrimination only say that if a person has that situation, they cannot be criminalized for being “caught” in the “wrong” restroom or peesecuted for happening to want to have a job or go out in public. (And anti-discrimination laws do not protect perverts preying on children–the idiotic claim of those who insist that there be no protection–because a person who was actually preying on children would be in violation of predator laws regardless how their body appeared to an external examination.)

No one is demanding that one be “forced” to do anything other than to refrain from being a persecuting jerk.

[tomndebb]

@raventhief

Sorry, God put you into the wrong body. Deal with it.

If you want to attack the poster, go open a thread in The BBQ Pit. Leave the personal attacks out of Great Debates.
EVERYONE: I do not care how frustrated you may be in this discussion, personal attacks are going to be Warned from now on.
[ /Moderating ]

[Trinopus]

@tomndebb

This is nonsense. Unless you are going around making people drop their pants or skirts, you are not going to know who is transgender, to begin with. . . .

There will, alas, be some cases where one can tell. There will inevitably be some transwomen with remnants of a beard, or with a masculine jaw-line, or with masculine hands.

On the other hand, there are also tons of cases where you can’t tell! I’ve seen people and have been absolutely unable to tell you which sex they were.

There is always going to be a substantial risk of “false positives” and “false negatives” in everyday assessment of people’s sex/gender.

(I know two men who like to cross-dress…and who have immense beards. To me, the only reasonable answer is not to care. Okay, that guy, with a great black beard, is wearing a dress. What possible reason would I have to call attention to it in any way? A four-year-old might pipe up, “There’s a bearded lady over there.” The rest of us are supposed to be a bit more mature. As Thomas Jefferson said about religion, this neither picks my pocket nor breaks my arm.)

[DerekMichaels00]

@Trinopus

There will, alas, be some cases where one can tell. There will inevitably be some transwomen with remnants of a beard, or with a masculine jaw-line, or with masculine hands.

On the other hand, there are also tons of cases where you can’t tell! I’ve seen people and have been absolutely unable to tell you which sex they were.

There is always going to be a substantial risk of “false positives” and “false negatives” in everyday assessment of people’s sex/gender.

(I know two men who like to cross-dress…and who have immense beards. To me, the only reasonable answer is not to care. Okay, that guy, with a great black beard, is wearing a dress. What possible reason would I have to call attention to it in any way? A four-year-old might pipe up, “There’s a bearded lady over there.” The rest of us are supposed to be a bit more mature. As Thomas Jefferson said about religion, this neither picks my pocket nor breaks my arm.)

if men and women have to report their gender to government, have it on their licenses, and SJWs are so insistent on this bathroom thing, maybe TM and TF should be alongside M and F as official gender categories, and be on their licenses and other official documents. Then you could more easily enforce reasonable bathroom laws but compromise. I am a pragmatic person.

But then, if TM and TF became official categories, goodbye “gender fluidity,” or being male one day, non-conforming the next day, female the next, etc.

[Guinastasia]

@DerekMichaels00

I am a pragmatic person.

Sez you.