One person's opinion of Card's "Pastwatch" (spoilers)

Summary: Partially-digested feces. With just a hint of pandering freshness.

There are times in your life when you are reading a book by one of your favorite authors that makes you cock your head to the side, pull back your ears, and, with a puzzled look on your face, make a sound somewhat like “ar-ooo?” After finishing the book, you throw it across the room, and start to re-evaluate why you like the author in the first place. You feel stupider than when you started, because now you need to go re-study history and physics just to get the bad science out of your head. This book was that bad.

It’s been a while since I read the book, and I refuse to read it again. But, thanks to chorpler’s insistance, I will endeavor to recall my feelings about the book. Thanks, chorpler, you’ll be getting my psych bill. :wink:

It might help to have a brief synopsis of the book. In the distant future, the world has problems. There’s war, everpresent famine and hunger, global pollution, the works. The future people devise machines that can look back into the past and watch events as they unfold; this program is called “Pastwatch” and is staffed by our protagonists. One such character sees that Christopher Columbus was visited by another group of people from the future, who convince him to go find America rather than go stomping around with the Crusades. This process, it is speculated, will destroy the old future while a new future is built. Columbus does go find America, thereby introducing genocide upon the native Americans and starting a chain of events that lead to today’s lack of food, but at least preserving the Middle East from Columbus’ religious passions. Our protagonists decide to fix this historic meddling, and invent a machine that sends them into Columbus’ past, where they plant American prophecies of Columbus’ arrival and make him a caring and gentle Messiah that drives a new age of stone-age industrial might, thereby making Mesoamerica a world superpower that rivals all of Europe. Everyone still living happily lives to a ripe old age.

The problem that readjusting Christopher Columbus’ path will again destroy the future, is specifically addressed then discarded.

That’s right, the topic of the murder of hundreds of billions of lives is discarded, because the treatment of the 15th century native Americans is more important.

One could make the argument that this book is a cautionary tale, prepared with heaping spoonfuls of tact and clever irony, highlighting the dangers of time travel. I reject this theory, because Card is neither clever enough nor subtle enough a writer to do this. When he wants to make a point, he pins it up to the wall, sprinkles gold glitter on it, draws arrows pointing to it with magic marker, shines a spotlight on it, then, after he’s gotten your attention, whacks a few long nails into it. He just wants to make sure the reader GETS THE POINT.

No, in this book, the protagonists are rewarded for their hubris. They get to live long, comfortable lives in a land of plenty with a progressive and people-friendly government.

This cowardly act is worse than murder. Murder implies that someone, once living, was robbed of their life. This is an act of uncreation - the removal from a victim of all possibility of life. Somewhat similar to some arguments of pro-lifers, to be sure, but this book review isn’t meant as a review of this political trend. The author is pro-choice, anyhow, so I doubt I could (or want to - :shrug: ) convince Card that this form of death is more significant than murder.

But it’s worse than murder in other ways. This is genocide - the willful destruction of whole groups of people. The three people who go back in time, see, they acknoweldge that their acts result in the destruction of all their family, all their loved ones, and all those they ever knew.

This was justified because it would prevent the current global political, environmental and social problems. That, my friends, is genocide on the basis of percieved cultural superiority.

It gets better. We are led to understand that the history that was deleted was our own. Our history, the history of the readers of the book. The characters in the book kill you, they kill your family, they kill your loved ones, they kill everyone you ever knew or even knew about, and so on.

Never mind that, at the conclusion of the book, a ginormous Mesoamerican supernavy is parked, so densly that the ships crowd the horizon from north to south, on the shores of a badly fractured Europe. We are expected to understand that there is no following bloodbath, no wars, no later conquests. The Mesoamerican superpower is ruled by just and honorable people who would never let such a thing happen.

All this happens, of course, on the unshakable assertion that Christopher Columbus was the single most influentual person in history. That is to say, his actions have affected more people throughout history than any other person, ever. This is a well-established FACT (with gold glitter glued to it, highlighted with a spotlight) based on the research of high-tech scientists who can actually watch history unfold.

Except, of course, it’s rubbish. For example, Gengis Khan and his armies personally affected more people, and his influence completely reshaped Asia and Europe and, by extention, America through Columbus and other European explorers and conquorers. Khan gets little or no mention in the book - not enough to warrant me remembering it, anyway. Similarly, Alexander the Great rates no better than chopped liver.

Much of Card’s effort also went into describing how horrible the American genocides were. The characters discuss smallpox blankets and westward expansion and 20th century exploitation of native factory workers. For some reason, this specific genocide was worse than the Jewish Diaspora, or the slaughter of the Cimmerians, or the Roman campaigns to wipe out the Gauls. And again, Gengis Khan is conveniently not mentioned - he put a lot of hard work into obliterating folks in Persia and other places. I was continually asking why the American genocides were so terrible in comparison, but this is never answered in the book.

Stop, then, to remember that Card is a Mormon. He, like I, believe that the native American people are a chosen people by God. If you want to debate this, fine, but get your own thread, please. Accept that Card has a special place in his heart for the people who lived here before the Europeans. Anyway, this premise is addressed, indirectly, in the book. The summary: if there is a God, He ain’t listening. It was made abundantly clear that the Pastwatch historians never came across any signs of divine intervention, and the prevailing consensus was that He wasn’t going to come rescue anyone. In fact, the first part of the book is a dry and secular deconstruction of the story of the bliblical flood, witnessed in real time by the Pastwatch historians, as though to say “look here, stories of God are simple rubbish.” Therefore, the author’s notion that the Americans were holy people living in a holy land has no meaning in this novel.

One also asks oneself the question as to why the future was so bad to live in. Everyone we meet in the future is well-fed and well-read, there’s plenty of breathable air, and the technology is amazing. We only get snippets of bad things happening in the future, through the characters perceptions, with just a little through exposition, but not enough to convince the reader that it’s worth killing hundreds of billions of people to fix.

It’s also not mentioned that there’s no way to be sure that changing the past will actually fix any problems. I say it can’t. You either (a) destroy the industrial revolution and thereby benefit the environment to the detriment of the people living in it, or (b) re-live the industrial revolution with its attendant pollution issues and improved genocidal techniques.

A competing science fiction author named Elaine Radford once claimed that Card’s novels Ender’s Game and Speaker For the Dead, which won many accolades including the Hugo and Nebula awards, amounted to an apology of Adolph Hitler and his acts of genocide. This argument is largely accepted as flimsy and selfish, and not many people take it too seriously.

It’s too bad that Radford never applied that argument to this book, because that’s exactly what this book is. It’s a defense of the premeditated and systematic destruction of entire civilizations in order to fulfill someone’s sociopolitical goals. There, I said it. On the basis of this book I safely feel it can be argued that Orson Scott Card, one of my favorite novelists, is a Holocaust apologist in sheep’s clothing. (That epiphany really hurt.) This book kills off more people than Hitler, more people than Stalin, more people than anyone else ever, because their existance was based on flawed social policy.

Yep, the future’s looking bright.

:smack: And I put it in the wrong forum. I meant this to go into Cafe Society. Mods, can you please fix this for me?

Yep.

Moved from the Pit to CS.

No problem. :wink:

I did enjoy reading your comments, but I have one objection. The reason they went back into the past to chagne everything, and decided it was worth it to uncreate everybody, was that the present was dying; they only had a few years left before they were going to run out of food and lose all of civilization. It wasn’t just to prevent social injustice, it was to prevent their own (our own) timeline from leading to the end of humanity. And the world voted on it and agreed that it was the best thing to do, didn’t they?

Was there a global vote on the thing? I honestly don’t remember. Even so, I find it hard to believe that a majority of them would be willing to give up all of history just to avoid a dark age. The un-creation of hundreds of billions versus the starvation deaths of a few billion - it doesn’t quite add up.

Though I agree with you in general that Card stretches in this book way more than usual (and the usual is pretty far anyway), but I would quibble with this. We’re talking, not just a dark age, but a dark age with no foreseeable way to rise again. Humanity had extracted all the easy metals, all the oil and coal, basically all the things one needs to have anything more than a Stone Age existence. Given such a bleak prospect, and given the fact that the history of something different would vanish eventually, I could see people being persuaded. It’s speculation, which is all it ever can be, because humanity has never been put into such dire straits.

Remember also, that the reason Columbus was originally distracted from his goal of hitting the Middle East int he Crusades was that there was a Tlaxcalan conquest of Europe in a prior version of history that led to the sacrifice by the Aztecs of tens of millions of Europeans and the destruction of European society in general.

So we have:

First iteration: Columbus goes east. Aztec’s conquer Europe and commit the usual atrocities. People from that future go back and steer Columbus west to try to head this off. This results in our universe.

Second iteration: Columbus then goes West and discovers the new world. Native American’s die by the millions from disease and conquest, African’s are enslaved and sent to the new world. Eventually things are screwed up so badly that the government has determined that a die off of 99% of the human race is inevitable and once civilization collapses it won’t be coming back (I seem to recall someone saying “Even if they tried to come back where would they get the metals and other raw materials. We’ve used or converted them all.” So Pastwatch (this version) determines to alter things again and puts it to a global vote. It passes and three go back.

Third iteration: The three go back and A) plant prophecies of Columbus, spread an engineered virus that confers immunity to European diseases in the Native population and C) destroy Columbus’s ships to prevent his return and force him to adapt to the Native population and give them time to prepare for further European arrivals.

So I think you’re interpretation of the ending is a bit weak. I agree that there’s a BIG step in people voting themselves out of existence but there’s a precendent set in the the voters already KNEW that one iteration had elected (voluntarily or otherwise) to do so and therefore ‘pre-sold’ the concept.

In addition, one of the three contained, carved in his skull, a complete history of exactly what happened so when found those who chose to go ‘poof’ would be remembered.

And, hell, Card freely acknowledged that he got the idea while playing Civilization and seeing how things could go differently by returning to save points and playing differently. That’s GOT to count for something.

Normally, I roll my eyes at puns that involve the substitution of “moron” for “Mormon,” but in this situation it’s both amusing and appropriate.

Noted, stopped and remembered. :smiley:

Hm. I wasn’t moved to throw the book across the room, but I do agree that the argument for the point of change was totally lacking and a world of humans voting themselves out of existence was totally ludicrous, even if there was no easy way of coming out of the next stone age. Card even mentioned how impossible it was to poll everyone, and still at the critical moment the “world” made its decision. Whatevs. But I figured it was just Card’s way of expressing his abstract wish for humanity to be more proactive towards the greater good, no matter how flawed his way of getting there (and how, as always, some sort of Christian/Mormon facsimile of religion is required).

Is it weird that I totally don’t find it that ridiculous? I just don’t find the idea of never having existed repugnant or upsetting. If my entire existence were erased, I wouldn’t be around to care, would I? I would lose nothing. If I were a global citizen and someone said to me: “You can let your grandchildren starve to death or you can wink painlessly out of existence in order to give humanity a chance at a history that is just and peaceful,” I wouldn’t even have to think twice.

I am fascinated that so many posters in this thread are so horrified by the prospect of erasure. I mean, it was a good run and all, but there is nothing about human history that is inherently sacred. It often seems to me that the joys of human existence on the planet have been ephemeral, while the shame of starvation, oppression, genocide and atrocity has been enduring.

Don’t get me started on this one. Basically it’s a bunch of Deus Ex Machinas strung back
to back (along with an unrealistically-compliant Columbus). It was this novel, along with a
number of other bad eggs, which turned me off to quasi-hard SF for a good long
while (along with some stuff by S. M. Stirling)…

Reading your post I thought the multiple timeline theory (which matches
theory 1.3 in this article on Wikipedia (scroll 2/3rds down the page) was a good
match for what Card describes. You and the other posters are correct: it matches
theory 2.2 instead (one mutable timeline) tho I forget how the characters figured
that out actually…

Now if I am the one misremembering the time theory posited in the novel, I
apologize. If you are correct, and there was only one timeline, IIRC they want
to save natural resources from depletion, and Card’s implicit assumption was
that the Native Americans, with their (alledgedly) inherent environmental ethic,
would prevent that from happening and thus save future civilization from collapse.
Unfortunately I don’t have the inclination to dig the book back out of the dusty
corner it currently inhabits and reread the relevant chapters to check…

It is an interesting philosophical argument (regarding the “killing” of numerous
future people)-aren’t we doing that right now with every action we commit? Oops
I just jerked off-there goes a bunch of possible descendants who will now never
exist. “Sorry about that!” as they swirl down the drain.

In any event I otherwise agree with you-bad SF bad premise bad story. My main
objection was how plans often “gang angley” from what was intended, and such
a convoluted plan undoubtedly would have gone way off course from that which
was intended. Whatever-I just wasted 20 minutes discussing this book after
having wasted 3 days reading it 7 years ago…

Not horrifying, just ludicrous. The human race wouldn’t do it. I would venture to say you’re not in the majority here, and that was my issue. If it was between banding together and finding some - albeit really hard - way to rise out of the next stone age, and winking out of existence, what do you think the real world would choose?

If it really came down to that, I’d happily kill everyone who opposed me, if it means I could feed my kids. Dark ages, schmark ages. So what if we’re out of coal - wood burns. Flint chips and sparks. We’ll find something that gives us heat and shelter and protection from the animals and each other. Humanity reverts to its basic animal urges while using that big grey piece of meat in its head and survives.

Any group of scientists polling a town about whether we’d rather (a) let them kill us all en masse, or (b) die trying to survive the coming winter, would quickly come to two conclusions: (1) most people choose option b, and (2) scientists who pack heat and run really really fast have a significant chance of escaping angry mobs.

But what if you knew you and your children were almost certain to die?

They were proposing changing the past because they were upset that their descendents were going to be living in the dark ages. The coming dark ages would mean almost every person on earth would die. And that includes you and your children. Maybe a few people would survive the ecological collapse but 99% wouldn’t. So it’s not like with a just a bit more moxie you and your kids would pull through but with flint knives and bearskins instead of computers and central heating. Collapse meant mass death and taking most of the biosphere down with them.

Of course this stacks the deck, because Card proposes that we achieve world peace and ecological awareness before the collapse but too late to prevent it. The reality is that the ecological collapse would prevent any such enlightenment as the increasingly desperate survivors fought over the scraps.

Oh, ok - I see, I thought that it was made clear in the book that the planet was losing its ability to support all life - even animals - and that everyone was going to die of starvation. I could be misremembering, but I thought that the approaching massive climate change was greater than that which killed the dinosaurs and we were approaching the certain extinction of every organism more complex than blue-green algae and possibly cockroaches. Maybe I am just confabulating with Sheri S. Tepper’s concept of “Fidipur” in Beauty.

Change that to:

They WEREN’T proposing changing the past because they were…

Surely the lawyers would survive? Somewhere between algae and roaches? :wink:

Okay, so it’s like participating in the worst-case scenario of Vinge’s Singularity. Earth accumulates so much crap that nothing we do - even stopping polluting right now - has a chance of halting the impending mass extinction. (Not really a likely scenario, but hey, it’s fantasy.) The odds are very bleak. They’re still a shade better than willfully blipping out of existance.

In the eloquent words of Lister: If Death comes near me I’m gonna rip his nipples off!

I just finished this book and loved it. Sure, it’s not perfect, but no book is. Even so, I feel it’s worth defending here.

Wrong. It’s okay to make billions not exist, if the survival of the species is the major goal. Given that we’re presented in the book as fact that a major collapse is happening, that America (a major food exporter) is suffering starvation and famine, things are bad. Really bad. Bad enough that the majority of people would rather their ancestors have a chance, than that they and their descendants wouldn’t. It’s also given to us as fact that humanity will be unable to rise again. This means no space travel, which means inevitable extinction.

You’re looking at it the wrong way. Most of the groups of people still existed back in 1492. Not only that, thousands more groups existed as well. The Tasmanians could still be around. How many unique tribes, cultures, societies, were wiped out with the death of more than 90% of North America’s, Polynesia’s, and Australia’s native populations? They can never be brought back. The act of undoing their destruction is pretty much the opposite of genocide.

Who’s superior? The problems are global. Everyone has them. It’s a global collapse, and the global population agreed that it was justified.

No one says that. People are people, and most people at the time are ruled by monarchies of one form or another. The goal isn’t to make global peace. The goal is to make sure that Old World culture isn’t totally wiped out (Timeline1), and to make sure that New World culture isn’t totally wiped out (Timeline2). It’s to give them a more equal ground to stand on when they do meet. Also remember that they introduced a virus that bestows immunity to over a dozen of the most deadly, major diseases of the time, which will spread throughout the world, and accelerate the rise of civilization by preventing the mass die-offs that would have happened due to disease alone.

Hundreds of billions of people will die anyways. You can have them die and have no chance of fixing anything, or you can have them die and have a chance at fixing things. Everyone we meet? That’s like saying everyone in the Manhattan Project is well-fed. They’re literally the best of the best. Remember, people in America are starving in the book. The world’s fattest and most powerful nation is starving. Imagine how the rest of the world is doing.

There’s no way to be sure, but there’s a chance. Besides, three people with a good amount of equipment went back. Not only will they be jump starting the industrial revolution, but they will have already had the first one to learn from in order to skip over the most inefficient, polluting aspects of it.

This book is a defense of the creation of thousands of species of animal, thousands of individual, unique, cultures, and the saving of hundreds of millions of lives. It is a defense for accelerating advancement, so that the four hundred years it would’ve taken to get to modern society can be cut in half. This book is about the saving of the human species from inevitable extinction. Sure, there’s a chance at failure. But it’s better to at least try.

The poster you are responding to hasn’t logged on here in more than 3 years.

And I see an old post of mine before I eschewed hard returns (another old habit which died hard).

Like I said, too much had to go right for the plan to work, and Murphy’s Law is usually relentlessly unmerciful.