Well the “magic” did the trick! 
I hate to break it to you, but getting a Bachelor degree doesn’t mean squat in terms of being insurance against whacko-dom.
Out of curiosity, is there any sort of evidence that would convince you that this incident wasn’t a miracle?
It sure did… just like these fine tiger-repelling charms I have here. I keep one in my pocket all the time, and I’ve never been attacked by a tiger! Would you like to buy one?
I don’t think she’s a wacko because she prayed. In fact I don’t think she’s a wacko at all. But this is certainly a lesson of how very easy it is to convince yourself that a miracle has occured. It’s not like most people, even nonbelievers, are devoid of superstitious thinking. How many people here get the urge to “guide” a bowling ball after you’ve already thrown it? 
What if you had witnessed the exact same situation, but instead of saying “don’t call 911…I’m going to call Jesus,” the woman had said “don’t call 911…it’s just a small bump. I’m going to apply pressure to bring down the swelling”? Would you still interpret the rapid reduction of the lump as being a miracle? Or would you simply have assumed that the woman was able to reduce the swelling by applying pressure?
What I’m getting at is that what you witnessed really wasn’t that unusual, and the only reason that you consider it to be a miracle is the praying that occurred at the same time. The same occurrence in any other situation would probably have evoked a “huh, that lump went down pretty fast. I’m glad the kid’s okay” from you instead of an “It’s a miracle!”
I’m not sure what you witnessed, but if I was injured and someone nearby said that they’d better hope they have two lifesaving miracles saved up.
I’m generally skeptical about miracles, but I’ve visited St. Joseph’s Oratory in Montreal where Brother André performed miracles, curing many thousands of people. The whole thing looked real to me, thousands of crutches line the walls and documentation that something was up is plentiful. I would find it hard to believe that something like that could be done Wag The Dog style.
Crutches? As a famous skeptic once said about all the crutches at Lourdes: “What, no peg legs?”
Well, you can bring on the sarcastic retorts about how we’re all ‘piling on’, and how it’s oh so unfair, and what horrible rude people we are, but I’m gonna say it anyway, because it’s the truth: That kid’s lucky he wasn’t seriously hurt. I’m glad he wasn’t, but children have DIED from ignorant folks who think prayer is an effective substitute for medical treatment. It’s not something to be taken lightly. Shame on that person who said not to call 911. I have nothing against prayer, except when people are praying instead of taking care of business.
Neither I nor START expected anyone not to disagree, as far as I can see.
Unless “everyone’s own take” is substantially different, it will just clog the server, and I believe the board frowns on that. I do feel that most posts ought to add something substantial to the debate. But I didn’t say that was the problem in here! I already said that everyone had been fairly nice in this thread and you chose to take that the wrong way. I’m not upset, either, and I don’t see that I’ve posted anything that suggested I was. I can only conclude that you simply don’t like me. Which I suppose is fair enough…
I don’t really see anyone getting pissed off round here except you. Nor anyone who fits into that ugly caricature.
I’m not upset. I think you might be, though. Anyway, even START doesn’t share my particular beliefs. Now, in GD you do need lots of evidence and cites, and diagrams and scholarly back-up are regular requirements too. I genuinely wasn’t being sarcastic. You’re choosing to read all of my posts in the foulest light possible. You are inferring something from my statements that simply isn’t there. I have no beef with you or this thread. Neither did I criticise anyone for using ‘cliched arguments’, because these debates always end up using the same arguments. I was trying lightheartedly to warn START that the debate was at stalemate, and had been for years, with little changing but a build-up of emotion on both sides. The developments in religious philosophy have not been big ones, and while they’re exciting to those in the field, if they were earth-shattering they’d have filtered down to common knowledge by now.
All I did was advice START about the type of forum. All I can ask is that you go back and read my first post a touch more charitably, and you might see that I wasn’t having a go at anyone at all. I was trying to tell him about debate, and its difference from a chat. Fortunately it seems START knew perfectly well what he was doing, so I have done him a disservice, for which I apologise. I don’t see any need for me to bother you further. Sorry to have been such a pain. ;j
I am NOT being persecuted! This is a coupla posts on a messageboard. I think you’re kidding, but please don’t imagine I regard this as persecution!
“don’t call 911…I’m going to call Jesus”
excuse me… but
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA
oh hold on this isn’t funny, a potentially serious head injury occured to a minor and instead of calling for professional care your ‘group’ prayed…
I suppose if the lad had lapsed into a coma and died you would have prayed at his funeral too.
Well done you!
Yeah, like the local merchants and priests buying thousands of crutches and lining threm up against the wall to keep the rubes coming to St. Joseph’s Oratory and the surrounding town to donate money and help the local economy . . .
Maybe one of the Montreal dopers could drop in and tell us anything they’d heard about it, I honestly don’t know what they think about it as the topic never came to mind when I was around, but maybe they could give a little bit more information than what I have.
I’m not some Bible toting priest. I’m quite skeptical when I hear about Jesus or Mary showing their face in a jar of mayo (yeah, its an unfair generalization of “miracles”) or when something else extremely unlikely and seemingly divine happens.
But I went there and saw what appeared to be “evidence” (of course any or all of it could be fabricated) that something that might’ve been a “miracle” had happened there many many times over a period of years. If this was fabricated, though, I’m sure there would be ample proof that it wasn’t true, like suddenly a crapload of crutches being ordered or bought up or maybe just one eyewitness account of the thousands of crippled people that went there leaving the place with their handicap unhealed. This happened within the lifetime of many people still alive that could tell us if these so called healings took place or, to start, at least whether or not such “miracles” were ever really in the local news.
Anyone with a bit more knowledge of the topic beyond a basic tour want to bring anything up? Considering what would have to be done to pull something this off, and how relatively recent it was, I’d think it’d be quite easy to find a bit of information disproving or at least claiming it false if it was set up. Google searches of the topic with “fake, false, or hoax” didn’t come up with much.
Honestly, though, I did wonder why EVERY seriously sick person in the world didn’t flock to Montreal when news of this broke out.
Again, I’m VERY skeptical of miracle claims and would like to see some more solid proof that this happened beyond the crutches and wheelchairs. Its just that from the information I saw that was independent (newspaper clippings and photographs, mostly) and the lack of people saying they saw something to disprove it I came to the conclusion that if it is fabricated whoever did it did a pretty damn good job of getting around some major questions that would disprove it right from the beginning.
In cases like this, I think it’s more a matter of “what’s to disprove?” Just about every saint has miracle cures attached to them, but the stories are usually so fuzzy and potentially pedestrian that it’s not like skeptics run around trying to disprove every single one. The crutches thing is pretty common, even today. And, as I said: what, no discarded peg legs?
“as I said: what, no discarded peg legs?”
That is pretty funny, I missed it when you posted it before
And I know what you mean about the whole “what’s to disprove?” issue and “divine cures”, though this situation had me puzzled because of the number of people supposedly cured Though I just realized that while googling around I never ran into any testimonials… But I’m I not exactly sure what to search for to get that.
If it is all show and can be disproven why does the Catholic church let it continue without taking a look at it? Hasn’t the church become a little more modernized since the Second Vatican Council? Or do they just not look when thousands upon thousands of people flock there to pay either for “regular” or “premium” candle lighting?
Then why on Earth did you gripe when people did? Oh, that’s right - it wasn’t a gripe, it was a “warning” to START, so he wouldn’t be “taken aback” by it, even though you’re now saying you think he expected it all along. Whatever.
Geez, what a mealy-mouthed load of drivel. You guys always do such-and-such. Oh, but you’re not doing it now. But I’m going to warn the OP about it, even though you’re not doing it. It’s deeply wearying if you’re used to it but realise that the subject warrants a little more respect than eight or nine blithe dismissals in a row. Oh, did I just say that? I meant that nobody’s doing that. Oh except you Blowero - now you’re doing it. I guess you just don’t like me.
Oh, and now the old “I’m not mad, YOU are” game.:rolleyes: YOU brought it up, my friend - not me.
Oh, please.
Well then you failed in that regard. It came off much more as a whiney rant against those who disagree with you on the subject.
O.K. - reading again, here’s what stands out:
(a complete strawman, since we weren’t talking about anyone being raised from the dead)
I dunno - if you think all that constitutes a simple light-hearted comment that the topic isn’t likely to ever be settled, I suggest YOU read what you wrote again.
Well, the church walks a fine line between letting silly things go unchallenged, and dampening people’s enthusiasm for sainthood and miracles, which are a lifeblood of the church. In the modern day, they are actually fairly skeptical themselves, because they don’t want to be taken in by something later declared a fraud. However, they generally are not so strict with past miracles which have been long accepted before they got stricter and more careful. This particular saint died in the 30s, for instance.
There’s yer miracle- god tripped the kid because I don’t know how many times I’ve told you not to run in the halls, and tie your shoelaces, and wipe your nose, and clean up that mess you and your brother left in the kitchen, and not to question the power of god…
I have a feeling START is making up this story.
First, a kid knocks his head on the table and does not lose conciousness, or bleed much, and only has a lump - clearly the injury is not serious. Such minor, and ecen not so minor, accidents happen around the house and playgrounds all the time. A 5 year old cannot hurt himself seriously by knocking his head on a wooden coffee table. No one calls 911 for a kid who has knocked his head on a table and is not bleeding profusely or exhibiting other abnormal symptoms. Therefore START’s statement that “one guy was going to call 911” does not appear true.
Come on START! Spill it…you were pulling a fast one weren’t you? :dubious:
A flood starts in a small town. The police come to tell Bob (of Chick tract fame) to evacuate. Bob refuses and says the lord will save him.
The water rises and the police come by with a boat to Bob’s house to evacuate him. He refuses and says the lord will provide.
The water rises more and Bob has to climb to the roof. A national guard helicopter comes but Bob refuses and restates his faith in the lord’s protection.
Bob’s house is washed away and is promptly drowned. Through the grace of the lord Bob finds himself sent to heaven. He arrives at the pearly gates to meed a confused St. Peter who wants to know why he’s here early. Bob is confused too and asks why the lord didn’t save him. Pete makes a phone call and seems even more puzzled than ever. He asks Bob what happened to the police car, the boat and the helicopter they sent.
I believe in miracles but I don’t look for them as parlor tricks.
Hence “Miracle Whip”.