Well, no. The issue is that YOU are annoyed by the game. Unless the other guy is explicitly trying to annoy you (spawn camping, harassing messages, etc) simply playing the game by attacking you isn’t a “crime” at all even if you don’t like it.
Sorry, but that has nothing to do with the statement I was responding to. That statement is “Ethics and morality govern our interactions with other humans, and apply to all interactions with other humans, regardless of time, place, or circumstance.”
Ethics and morality do not govern what I do to another puppet with a puppet. Similar to what I do with a fake, made up character in a fake, made up world, regardless of who is controlling the other fake, made up character in the fake, made up world.
I get it. You want to traipse through the World of Warcraft or Ultima Online or Hello Kitty Island Adventure, but don’t want other people to mess up your flower picking or whatever. That’s too bad for you, and other people are under no moral or ethical obligation to confirm to your made-up world view of a made up world when the game is specifically designed to favor PvP as opposed to tulip picking by a mountain stream. Pick a different game that doesn’t allow that, or become a great PVP player or whatever. Stop whining about people fake-killing fake characters in a fake game in a fake world.
As the guy who made the statement you were responding to, I can state with confidence that this is entirely, 100%, factually incorrect. If you’re playing Skyrim, you’re not interacting with other people, because everything else in the game is controlled by scripting or AI. Therefore, moral or ethical standards do not apply. If you’re playing World of Warcraft, you ARE interacting with other people. Therefore, moral and ethical standards DO apply.
This is NOT the same as saying that killing someone in a video game is the same as killing someone in real life. “Don’t kill people,” isn’t the moral standard involved there. “Don’t make other people miserable for your own enjoyment,” is the standard involved, and it applies in parks, restaurants, movie theaters… and video games.
Well, wait. If a game allows spawn camping and harassing messages, isn’t it therefore completely ethical to spawn camp and harass? Isn’t you’re entire argument predicated on the idea that, if a game allows you to do a thing, then there’s nothing wrong with doing that thing, regardless of how it affects anyone else? How are those two examples different from what bump was doing in UO?
Great. Telling someone that bought a game that advertises PvP that they are not allowed to PK other characters would make them pretty miserable. Now that you understand that, maybe you can stop telling PvP players how to play a PvP game (HINT: it’s by allowing them to kill other characters, which is why they have the game).
Sorry, but I disagree. Moral and ethical standards DON’T apply in a made up world, with made up characters, in a made up game. Park, restaurants, and movie theaters are REAL things, with REAL people, not 8 feet tall, one-eyed, bard-knight-blacksmiths.
How are other people miserable? They are the ones playing a game that allows PVP killing. IF they don’t want to be killed, DON’T PLAY THAT GAME. Why should OTHER people who enjoy killing fake characters in a fake game stop THEIR fun just because someone is whining about being killed in a game that allows killing?
Just like bumper cars at the fair. If you don’t want to be bumped, don’t ride in bumper cars. Don’t expect other people to not bump you just because you don’t like it.
In the specific case of UO, though, it was a small minority of players that were ruining the experience for the vast majority of other players. Most people playing UO didn’t want - or expect - it to be a PVP-only fest. Again, nearly every person bump roleplayed with did not enjoy the experience. Over and over, he’d play his little game, and people would end up genuinely hurt or upset. This isn’t some small number of players being upset at snipers being OP, or whining because they lost a game, this is people, over and over, expressing that they do not want to be engaged in a particular activity, and being forced to engage it anyway, or give up a game that they spent their money on.
Did the original UO advertise the fact that it was PVP? Did it say it on the box? I’m actually curious because I never played it.
Actually, my argument always hinged on the rules as a whole and not just the mechanics of the game as noted by my remarks about exploits, etc. Most games have a code of rules forbidding abusive speech and behavior. Note that this rule does not cover simply playing PVP. If you can get a GM (or admin, customer support, etc) to assist you because someone is sending you a barrage of nasty texts then it’s against the rules even if the game’s framework allows it. If you can get a GM to take action because “That guy killed me and I asked him nicely to stop but he didn’t so he’s a dick” then knock yourself out.
Sure, most games have a code of rules like that. If a game doesn’t, though, does that mean such behavior is okay? If there’s no explicit rule about sexually harassing female players, and the GMs won’t sanction people who sexually harass female players, does that make sexually harassing female players morally or ethically acceptable?
Also, bump’s actions did involve an exploit: they used “mule” characters to circumvent the PK penalty, allowing them to go into towns without being attacked by guards.
Well, in response to wide spread complaints from very nearly everyone who played UO about the prevalence of PKing, Origins introduced non-PvP game servers. Does that, at least, serve to undercut the idea that this was how the devs wanted the game to work?
Is the issue here that you genuinely don’t understand that online games involve other people? Because I can’t make heads or tails of this otherwise. Video games are also “real things,” every bit as much as a Star Wars movie is a “real thing.” There are other, actual human beings involved in playing WoW, just as there are other, actual human beings in the theater with you when you watch a movie. And behavior that makes it impossible for other people to enjoy the thing they paid money for is unethical in both cases.
I’m sorry, but Star Wars is not a “real thing” it is a made up fantasy movie. I didn’t say that MOVIES were real things, I said that movie THEATERS are real things, with real people.
Ok, let me ask you this: If you had a character in your game who constantly went up to female characters in the game and grabbed their animated breasts, would you consider that sexual harassment? Should the person playing the character call the real life police and say that their UO character was sexually assaulted? No? Because it is NOT real life, and real life laws, morals, and ethics do not apply to fantasy land games. Do YOU not understand the difference between real life and make believe?
I’m not sure how to address this with you. You’re so willing to believe people are idiots that you’re not paying attention to what people are actually saying.
Nobody is saying that a sexual harasser in a game is violating assault laws. They’re saying a sexual harasser in a game is being a dick.
Nobody is saying that someone who PKs in a game should face life without the possibility of parole for murder. THey’re saying that person is being a dick.
The actions in the game are pretend actions, yes, but the act of playing pretend is an act in the real world. And there are ways of playing pretend that are dickish.
The plot of Star Wars is fictional. The existence of a movie called “Star Wars” is a real thing. The plot of World of Warcraft is, likewise, fictional. The game called “World of Warcraft” is a real thing. Which is not really germane to the discussion, because the point of my comment is that the other people involved in the experience of playing World of Warcraft are real, just like the other people involved in the experience of watching Star Wars in a movie theater are real people.
No, that would not be sexual assault, because you’re grabbing the fictional tit of a fictional character. On the other hand, if you’re constantly describing to female players how much you want to grab their tits, that is sexual harassment. Even though it’s in a video game! You probably shouldn’t call the cops, because AFAIK, that sort of sexual harassment isn’t illegal. But we’re not discussing legality, we’re discussing ethics, and many things that are (and should be!) perfectly legal can still be deeply unethical.
Exactly. Video games are not a democracy. They are a dictatorship. The developers set and enforce the standards. Miller played the wrong game, for him or her, at the time. That said PvP proved so unpopular the developers changed things drastically. Not out of a sense of real world morality intruding into a fantasy game but because of $$$.
Non consensual PvP was intended. So was maiming and robbing the corpse. You could decapitate the head. That’s clearly intent. Now just because some players didn’t like it doesn’t change intent. I didn’t like it. But I chose to play. I could have chose not to play. That’s on me no one else.
Now with regards to monster density there were plenty of monsters. Bump and my recollections differ in that regard.
Spawn camping is legit. Harassing messages are typically prohibited by EULA.
No. Non consensual PvP was clear intent. However, the developers also intended for criminal behavior to have meaningful in-game consequences. That was a short coming on their part. Eventually, and it took awhile they split the shards but there was still many ways you could trick a player into flagging as attackable.
I’m not a fan of how the original UO implemented PvP because I’m of the mind that options should exist to how wild of a world players are subjected to. I think that multiple server types are the wishest method of accommodating differing playstyles.
Funny thing is even when a world PvP server is released and the rules are as clear as can be people still cry when they get ganked. That’s the problem with humans. They don’t like dealing with their own choices.
Even in Hearthstone people whine about aggressive decks.
Some games have a PvP arena… enter it at your own risk… and if you don’t want to play there, there are plenty of story quests.
If you are in a party and you want the party to enter PvP, some people may like it and some may leave the party. Its personal choice, you have to deal.
But don’t spam the chat channels with “Whaaaa! No one wants to fight my OP toon and be Ganked! Whaaaa! No one will play with me!”
I think that one of the things that D&D (some versions) got right was the concept of alignment. Some players just don’t belong in a party with other players if they conflict. Lawful-Good will not get along with Chaotic Evil and a well balanced game recognizes this.
Proper advertising like “I’m running an Evil Party” or “Running a Good party” will bring you who you should game with for the most fun for YOU.
If you are running a ‘Lawful Good’ character who tries to take a Pick-Up-Game party out of town so your other out of party guild mates in the hills with OP characters can Gank them,
steal all their gear, and auction off the “uniques” at the in the in-game auction house… like people did in D2… well then… Buddy, You’re Slime.
Anyone like that who wants can split hairs and game lawyer from here until the end of time, but they are still Assholes who people will choose not to play with.
No sorry, but the statement is morals and ethics apply to the fake, made up UO world just the same as they apply to the real world. I disagree with that. As an example, it would be immoral, unethical, and also illegal to go up to women in the real world and grab their breasts. But in the fake world of UO, it is not immoral, unethical nor illegal.
But you said morals and ethics are the same in the fake game world as they are in the real world.
So to you is it immoral or unethical for a computer generated image to grab the breasts of another computer generated image?
Further, if there is a female computer player called “Hotchick69” and the human being controlling her is called “Brad” saying “Hey Brad I want to grab your tits!” over and over again is harassment, I agree. Saying “Damn, I want to grab Hotchick69’s tits so bad!” is NOT harassment. How can you harass a computer generated character?
The Division is an excellent example of this - if you want to get into gunfights with other players, head to The Dark Zone, where the super-tough AI enemies are and you also run the risk of rogue agents.
Well, theoretical risk. I’ve been surprised how few genuine rogue agents I’ve encountered in there, despite all the horror stories I’ve heard online.
What I’ve seen is a lot of people being very nice to each other in there - resurrecting fallen strangers, for example, and one time my party and I covered an extraction for a group of low-level players so they could get their loot out. Nothing in it for us, but it was nice to get some XP shooting AI enemies and the warm fuzzy feeling of knowing we could help some newbies have a better game.
Things have changed a bit since the 1.2 patch. Prior to that there were a lot of guys running around the DZ with hacks or insanely high gear they got from glitching the first incursion. Most of the rouge players I ran into were running in groups of four, ambushing solo players while they were fighting AI.
The guys I run with (TOG) are very much the same as you. We’ll help out other groups or revive downed solo players.