Online gaming ethics and mores...

[Miller]

@Slash1972

Well, I’m sorry, but if you think interacting with characters in WoW, or interacting with characters in any game really, is the exact same thing as interacting with real people in a real park in the real world, then we will never agree on anything that has to do with computer gaming or the ethics/morals of characters in that world.

Killing or maiming or treating any computer character less then you would treat a REAL human being is NOT the same as doing the same thing to a REAL person in REAL life. If you don’t agree, of course that’s fine, it’s your opinion. But I play games to NOT be a real person, and do things that I wouldn’t do in REAL life, the same as most people I suspect. If you want to equate them, then good on you, but most people won’t.

Yeah, you’re still failing to understand this conversation on a pretty fundamental level. And I’m not sure there’s any point in trying to explain it to you again.

[Slash1972]

@Miller

Yeah, you’re still failing to understand this conversation on a pretty fundamental level. And I’m not sure there’s any point in trying to explain it to you again.

And I’M not sure that there is any point to explaining to you that fake characters in a fake game in a fake world are NOT the same as REAL people in the real world no matter how much you want them to be so.

[Slash1972]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

OH SHIT I MISSED THAT. I should have said a bajillion times that killing a computer character is not the same as doing the same thing to a real person! My bad, dude!

Are we even having the same discussion? Are you reading what I am saying? Are you reading what Miller is saying?

You said you spent 30 years trying to explain your point to people. Maybe there is something wrong with the point you are trying to make?

[Miller]

@Slash1972

And I’M not sure that there is any point to explaining to you that fake characters in a fake game in a fake world are NOT the same as REAL people in the real world no matter how much you want them to be so.

Since that doesn’t actually resemble my argument in any way, that’s probably a good thing.

[Slash1972]

@Miller

Since that doesn’t actually resemble my argument in any way, that’s probably a good thing.

Really? It seems to me that you think people should treat computer characters the same way as they treat real people.

Maybe I don’t know what your argument is then. It seems like you equate behavior in a computer game with behavior in the real world and that the ethical/moral behavior we show in the real world should be the same behavior we show in a made up world, with made up characters.

Is that not it? If not, then I guess I don’t know what your argument is.

[Miller]

@Slash1972

Really? It seems to me that you think people should treat computer characters the same way as they treat real people.

Nope. I think people should treat people who play video games the way they treat people in real life.

Is that not it? If not, then I guess I don’t know what your argument is

I think we’ve established that pretty well.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Slash1972

You said you spent 30 years trying to explain your point to people.

Different people.

[Slash1972]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Different people.

Well, maybe you should give up then. Either your point is faulty, or you don’t have the ability to get your point across. My guess is the former.

[Slash1972]

@Miller

Nope. I think people should treat people who play video games the way they treat people in real life.

I agree. Good thing I wasn’t talking about that then.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@bump

So in this thread about role playing games, there arose a discussion(starting on post #63) about the legitimacy and relative assholery of actually role-playing an evil character in a MMORPG.

Essentially one side was of the opinion that if the system allows for evil actions like thievery, robbery and murder, then players ought to be allowed to play characters who do that, as it’s an entirely valid and realistic role to play as a character.

Others took the position that those evil acts basically lessen or ruin others’ playing experiences and should be eliminated, or at the very least, a player who’s role playing an asshole is just as much of an asshole as the character he’s playing.

But that’s also true in other games as well- people HATE “campers” in FPS games, because it’s considered unsporting for some reason, even if it’s often a very smart way to play. Sniping is similarly derided in many games for the same reason.

Does this kind of thing fall under the same category? It’s arguably assholish, definitely ruining some people’s gaming experiences, and explicitly allowed and enabled by the game engines, especially in the case of sniper rifles, scopes, etc…

I guess I draw a bigger distinction between myself and my characters and/or get less attached to them, so that if someone does murder them, I’m not totally butthurt about it.

What do you think? What are the parameters of online assholery and video games?

I think you can play evil characters in D&D and shit like that but just being a griefer in a MMO kinda means that the griefer is probably a bit of a dick that enjoys making other people miserable.

Unfortunately game designers design games this way because you will spend $20 for revenge on that asshole who camped your corpse for 7 hours where you wouldn’t spend $5 for a pleasant gaming experience.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Slash1972

Well, maybe you should give up then. Either your point is faulty, or you don’t have the ability to get your point across. My guess is the former.

Are you shitting me? Because I haven’t educated everybody on the planet as to what roleplaying games are, because from time to time, even after thirty years of talking with people about it, I still sometimes meet people at parties who ask me, “So what’s the point of Dungeons and Dragons,” I must have a faulty point?

Does that even make sense to yourself?

You mentioned earlier having had a few beers. Would you mind revisiting this line of posts in the morning?

[Miller]

@Slash1972

I agree. Good thing I wasn’t talking about that then.

No, that’s a bad thing, because that’s literally the only thing I’ve been talking about in this whole thread. So if you haven’t been talking about that, you haven’t been responding to a single thing I’ve been saying this entire time.

[Slash1972]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Are you shitting me? Because I haven’t educated everybody on the planet as to what roleplaying games are, because from time to time, even after thirty years of talking with people about it, I still sometimes meet people at parties who ask me, “So what’s the point of Dungeons and Dragons,” I must have a faulty point?

Does that even make sense to yourself?

You mentioned earlier having had a few beers. Would you mind revisiting this line of posts in the morning?

Is there a point to D & D besides having fun? Seems like you could just say “We have fun playing make believe” and that would end all arguments.

No matter what I believed, I sure as hell wouldn’t spend 30 years trying to educate people about it.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Good lord. Revisit this in the morning, and if you still need an explanation, I’ll see what I have for you.

[Slash1972]

@Miller

No, that’s a bad thing, because that’s literally the only thing I’ve been talking about in this whole thread. So if you haven’t been talking about that, you haven’t been responding to a single thing I’ve been saying this entire time.

Good, so you don’t think people should treat an online world the same as they treat the real world? You should have, I don’t know, maybe mentioned that before you said ethics and morals are the same in an on-line world as they are in the real world.

[Slash1972]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Good lord. Revisit this in the morning, and if you still need an explanation, I’ll see what I have for you.

How about you explain what is so important that you would spend 30 years trying to explain it to people?

Maybe I should wait 30 years for you to do so.

[Count_Blucher]

@Slash1972

Maybe I should wait 30 years for you to do so.

I don’t think you two should game together, IMHO. And I don’t think I’m starting trouble by saying that.

Its technically possible that you two are closer to agreeing than it seems here… and that you both would discover this in-game… but it doesn’t look like it from here.

[octopus]

@bump

I was playing very early on, before they figured very much of it out. I mean, this was like September/October/November of 1997- literally the first few months after it was released.

To me, at least, the big difference here is intent. Yes, I was playing a character whose actions might piss off in-game characters. Who likes being robbed and/or killed?

But I wasn’t doing it to deliberately piss of the humans behind the characters. I was legitimately trying to play the bad guys. And know what? They’re called the BAD guys for a reason. How else are you supposed to play the bad guys on a server that allows for that sort of bad actions, if you aren’t going to do bad stuff? There’s no way around it.

It would have been more or less pointless in a non-PVP server, as I’d have been limited to garden variety thievery and harsh words, which wasn’t the character I wanted to play.

Truth be told, I really had intended to be my usual lawful good paladin-esque character, but was getting so annoyed and bored that me and my friends decided to flip it on its head and like Lemur866 noted, become the monsters.

I played as a LG type and I was so naive. Were you one of the infamous Chesapeake shard orcs?

[octopus]

@Miller

Again, you seem to have lost track of the fact that, in an online game, you are interacting with real people.

Different actions in game have different targets. If I pick your avatar’s pocket it’s not a personal attack on the player. If I call your character a real life racial slur and your character is a gnome, for example, you can assume it’s directed at the player. And that can get one banned as it violates the rules in WoW.

[octopus]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I think you can play evil characters in D&D and shit like that but just being a griefer in a MMO kinda means that the griefer is probably a bit of a dick that enjoys making other people miserable.

Unfortunately game designers design games this way because you will spend $20 for revenge on that asshole who camped your corpse for 7 hours where you wouldn’t spend $5 for a pleasant gaming experience.

Modern MMOs usually give players ample warning and choice. No one in WoW gets PvPed without ample warning or consent aside from one or two areas that are free for all.