Online Gold Farming (in China)

Great Debates
161

[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness]
According to every dictionary definition I could find, yes. I don’t know why those rules are in place, and I don’t need to. It’s absurd to suggest that I must be an expert on the rationale behind every rule in every sport in order to defend the dictionary definition of the intransitive verb “to cheat.”
[/quote]

It is absurd to suggest you “must be an expert on the rationale behind every rule in every sport.” Which would be relevant, if anybody had suggested it.

It’s not peculiar to me.

Here’s the definition of “cheat” from the Oxford English Dictionary :

From Cambridge Dictionary

Merriam-Webster

These dictionaries say that the definition of cheating includes obtaining an advantage, or taking one from someone else. None define cheating as merely breaking the rules, which is your definition, not mine.

My point was that the condemnation in the thread is focused on sellers. Apparently you read that as “Nobody has mentioned buyers,” which is not what I said.

162

Yes, getting back to the OP…

To take the concepts of Gold Farming and Real Money Transactions out of the context of WoW (or any specific MMO for that matter), I actually don’t think it’s necessarily unethical. It’s an industry just as much as actual, live farming is; the only difference is the goods being sold are virtual. I can picture an MMO where RMTs are not against the rules and are actually factored into the game, and in those cases it can be a solid contribution to the economy. (I believe Second Life is somewhere in this category, although I’m not familiar enough with it to say. I do know large corporations are actually setting up virtual offices in Second Life, which astounds me. :eek: )

It’s when you start looking at specific MMOs which have banned RMTs that it becomes unethical. The economy of these games did not take RMTs into account when designing the game. That is not necessarily a failure on their part; they built the game they wanted to build. On those games, it is harmful and against the rules.

Given that an MMO company only has authority over their MMO and not over every aspect of your life, there is no point at which it is justified to break what you might consider an unjust rule. You always have the option of leaving that game and finding one that doesn’t have that particular rule. Since willfully breaking the rules is always unjustified in a voluntary system, it’s always unethical in that system.

ETA: That’s not to say All Rules Are Good, of course. You can always petition for a reconsideration of a rule you dislike, but in the end Blizzard’s decision is Law.

163

[QUOTE=LinusK]
It’s not peculiar to me.

Here’s the definition of “cheat” from the Oxford English Dictionary :

From Cambridge Dictionary

Merriam-Webster

These dictionaries say that the definition of cheating includes obtaining an advantage, or taking one from someone else. None define cheating as merely breaking the rules, which is your definition, not mine.
[/quote]

Interestingly enough, under all three of those definitions, gold farming is cheating.

164

It is the same.

Which was the whole point of the post.

A buyer is cheating, because he obtains an advantage unfairly. A seller, on the other hand, doesn’t get an advantage, he gives one up.

165

Even if you’re right, the seller is enabling the cheating, which ethically doesn’t make him any better.

Could you please tell us why you feel this distinction between cheating and not-cheating is important, even though in both cases they’re still breaking the rules?

166

Also notice from that link:

This is the difinition (that is, 1B) of cheating by gold sellers in this thread that I, and I assume Bosstone and Blaster Master are using.

It is also a definition in your third link. (I dont know why the other two links do not include this subtlely different meaning, but this different meaning does indeed exist, and is valid.

The OP limited his question to stopping “Gold Farmers”. Thus the answers should really be tailored to that topic.

167

[QUOTE=LinusK]
It’s not peculiar to me.
[/quote]

The bit that is peculiar to you is an insistence that the advantage gained must be an in-game advantage. None of your definitions mention anything about that.

Actually, I read that as

I pointed out that there was NOT a “near absence,” inasmuch as 20% of the first half-page talked about buyers, generally condemning them in some terms, and that there was no “obsessive focus” on farmers, given that same percentage.

But if you’d like to back away from the hyperbolic statement and rephrase your point, you’re welcome to do so; I won’t hold you to such a silly claim.

Daniel

168

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
Regardless, it remains valid because many MMORPGs are created by “Western” developers; therefore, it follows that if Blizzard is hurting their market share there by cracking down on Gold Farmers, then another “Western” developer who doesn’t should over take them.
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No, because access to WoW means access to what is the gold farmer’s objective: not the gold, but the Westerners who will buy it.

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
If WOW is doing well today, then it follows they’ll likely do well tomorrow.
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Because if Everquest is doing well today, it follows that Everquest will continue to do well. Hummm, ummm, no, where did that go wrong? Oh that’s right, it went wrong when WoW came out.

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
You are the only one contending that they are not doing well in China.
[/QUOTE]

That’s correct, relative to their market domination everywhere else, WoW has had difficulty penetrating China. They aren’t number one, let alone number one by the enormous margin they enjoy just about everywhere else.

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
That’s 3.5x the average MMORPG in China and over 17% of the total gaming market, and a large portion of the total market probably isn’t even interested in MMORPGs. Either way, a quick 5 minutes on Google shows your argument doesn’t hold water.
[/QUOTE]

You should have spent longer. You’ll have to google it because it won’t direct link for me, but according to Niko Partners, the Chinese gaming market was 37.5 million in 2006 and this was after a massive annual jump. 90% of those gamers were online players. In any event, with somewhere near 150 online games operating in China, “the average MMORPG” has no meaning in market penetration terms, and 17% is far in excess of Blizzard’s actual success.

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
It DOES have economic merit, because you’re saying that banning Gold Farming is bad.
[/QUOTE]

I did? Quote it. This isn’t fanboi vs. the gold farmer advocate, no matter how much you want it to be. And I can tell that you really, really want it to be.

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
My point is that Blizzard has more to gain, monetarily, from continuing their efforts to quash Gold Farming.
[/QUOTE]

Continuing their efforts, but not quite succeeding. That’s my point, one that continues to elude you.

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
If they open the flood gates, and allow Gold Farming they’ll have inflation spiralling out of control, resources completely tapped by Farmers, etc. The average player will have a very difficult time getting stuff he needs and will quit.
[/QUOTE]

You just go on having that conversation all by yourself, don’t you?

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
You quoted me without context to flavor what I said, that is dishonest… cheating, if you will.
[/QUOTE]

Right, SDMB is just like World of Warcraft, and I’m a big cheater. Everyone’s a big cheater because you like sussing out the cheaters. Make me some moonhats out of feltpaper, I want to go find some cheaters.

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
This is a MASSIVE over simplification of the problem. The problem isn’t Chinese players, it’s Gold Farmers. Isolating the problem to China doesn’t fix it. So, for the sake of argument, let’s even say they can isolate the largest part of the problem to the Chinese market. Almost half of their subscribers are in China. How are they going to fix the Gold Farming there?
[/QUOTE]

I don’t care and it’s not the topic under consideration. I take it you concede that Blizzard can eliminate Chinese gold farming on Western servers whenever they wish. Thanks for finally acknowledging the obvious.

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
Umm.. did you read what I said at all, or just see numbers and look for an opportunity to scream “CITE!?” I made it quite clear that 20% was probably a generously high estimate. If I’m wrong, it doesn’t make what I said any less valid because ANY value less than 100% utilization for an average player (which is intuitively true) means that the cost for each Gold Farmer account is necessarily higher. And, even though it’s not necessary, here’s a cite that says its 21.0 hours per week which works out to 12.5% (IOW, my numbers WERE very generous).
[/QUOTE]

That’s a cite for how much time MMOGers (in America?) watch TV vs. how much they play games. It’s not supportive of any of your figures and has nothing to do with Blizzard’s costs vis a vis gold farmers. Now back up your numbers or stop demanding cites from others.

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
My point was that the cost for Blizzard is necessarily higher for a Gold Farmer’s account versus an average user’s account. Therefore, the argument that “well, they keep buying new accounts, so Blizzard must like that” runs on the assumption that the profit per account is constant, which it is not, or that they buy enough of them from constantly being banned, that it surpasses the cost. Since it it YOUR argument, YOU have to provide the cite.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I like how a paragraph that starts out as “My point was…” turns into Grossbottom’s argument and he has to provide a cite for it.

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
Neither of your main arguments holds an ounce of water. They are clearly doing well in China…
[/QUOTE]

In re Point 1: “Well” remains an undefined term. And they are not doing well compared to their success in other markets.

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
…, and Gold Farmers have costs in terms of side effect on the enjoyment of the game for average player AND server load.
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In re Point 2: Nobody cares about the side effect except the players that keep paying Blizzard anyway, and you haven’t supported any of your figures on cost to Blizzard vs. profits on the front end. Prove that gold farmers lose money for Blizzard instead of making it, you should be able to manage that.

[QUOTE=Master Blaster]
If you want to save face, and not look like you’ve been on a complete fool’s errand, at least provide a cite that they AREN’T doing well and that they AREN’T projected to continue to do well; I couldn’t find one.
[/QUOTE]

And for your grand finale, you demand that I save face by proving two negatives? Define irony. Maybe after that we can prove that Iraq doesn’t have WMDs and that you don’t beat your wife. Thanks, Junior Debate Club, that was fun.