BTW:
My “absurdly biased sources” from all of my posts today:
**1-Wikipedia
2-The Jewish Virtual Library
3-The Wall Street Journal
You really don’t have much of anything left other than personal attacks, do you? :rolleyes:
If they do, then where’s the beef? In war, nations exchange fire. The rockets are an act of war, the retaliatory strikes are acts of war, everything’s fine. What is anyone complaining about?
If they are at war, Israel has every perfect right to move in with tanks, defeat whatever opposition shows up, and occupy the area. They can arrest the leaders of the government, put a new government in place, and pull out again. This is all perfectly legal under the laws of war as pretty much universally understood.
It’s only if the two regions are not at war that any of the complaints make sense.
Have Hamas actually declared war on Israel?
Malthus, serious question. Does it give you any pause at all to notice that in this thread – as in virtually any where the topic of IP comes up – you have Americans as a whole posting in chorus defending most of Israel’s actions, while the few dissenters present almost always happen to be posters from other nations? Think there might be some sort of cognitive dissonance between the way Americans view Israel vs the way the rest of the world does?
Just taking a quick look at the “who posted” column shows me that out of approximately 50 people that posted, there have been only two Americans who disagree with Israel while, AFAICT, three out five foreigners do.
Is the disconnect really that wide or is it (more) reflective of the SDMB culture itself? As I said upthread, I don’t frequent many forums but the times I’ve read Dem Underground, I did find a much more balanced view – and poster distribution – on this whole issue. Just seems so insular in here…
Dude, I haven’t been engaging in personal attacks on you but made comments about your arguments and style of arguments.
And yes, every reasonable person would agree that most of your cites have been absurdly biased, the most obvious being the silly map you were waving around which claimed that between 1948-1967 the Gaza Strip and the West Bank were controlled by the Palestinians when every six-year-old in the region knows they were controlled by Jordan and Egypt.
Anyway, I don’t know what this thing with me is you have, but all I can say is you seem to care vastly more about me than I about you and I see little point in continuing to talk further.
Er… Hamas has repeatedly declared that they are at war with Israel and Israel is at war with them.
You appear to be saying in post 257 that the Israelis are equivalent to the person living in a stolen house, and that it’s okay to shoot at them.
What I’ve noticed is that pro-Israelis frequently admit to Israel’s mistakes. Those who oppose Israel refuse to admit any wrongdoing on anyone’s part other than Israel and inevitably conclude that Israel must die.
I can kinda see why most Dopers don’t go along with that.
They already have international sympathy. They are already on the right side of history. Israel’s position is maintained by force and money and some difficult to figure out “ally” connection to the US.
It seems that you think just because Israel and US Government think that Israel is in the right that automatically makes it universally just. Had no idea you are at that level of delusion. I will accept that might makes it right - hell, that’s why I’m in Canada. But, back home we have an expression - no candle glows past dawn.
Everyone knows that American public - lazy and clueless in general - is misled, lied to and simply manipulated into the belief that Israel is somehow ever important. Geez… if there was ever a nation whose citizens are so easy to manipulate that would be US - just few examples, Vietnam war, Iraq war, voting for Republicans in general.
As for Gandhi - let’s just say he was no fan of Zionism. Today, according to the newest and freshest criteria, he’d be referred to as anti-Semite. And you talk about irony… :rolleyes:
Okay…thanks. So, what’s the beef about air strikes? If they’re at war, that sort of thing is understood. Israel could fly overhead with heavy bombers and level their entire manufacturing capability, and it would be perfectly legal under the rules of war.
What are you talking about?
I don’t remember any major Jews classifying Gandhi as an anti-Semite based on his views on Israel.
Those that criticized him usually did so due to his advice to the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto.
Furthermore, the idea that anyone who’s a critic of Zionism is classified as an anti-Semite is one of the more asinine tropes on the net.
Who has ever declared that anyone who’s a critic of Zionism is an anti-Semite?
Name names.
Thank you. I was – and will keep – saying that if I am living in stolen property* I’d at least be cognizant of the fact that the people I stole it from just might try and do something to get it back and/or get back at me.
*As specifically relates to this discussion, the stolen land would be all the illegal Israeli settlements. I’ve said more than once that I recognize Israel right to exist as per the 1967 borders…and Palestine as well.
[QUOTE=newcomer]
They already have international sympathy. They are already on the right side of history. Israel’s position is maintained by force and money and some difficult to figure out “ally” connection to the US.
[/QUOTE]
That probably explains the near universal condemnation of the Israelis and the large push by nations throughout the world to force the issue and create a solid and viable Palestinian state…
…Oh, wait…
Sympathies in the US (that’s is, from the people, not the government) run at about 60% and have been pretty stable for, well, years now. No idea what such polls say in Canada, but I note that Canada doesn’t seem to be pushing for a condemnation of Israel or the establishment of a sovereign Palestinian state. But fight my ignorance here…if it’s only the US Government who supports Israel it should be pretty easy for you to demonstrate the many, many other nations that are condemning Israel over this latest dust up and are solidly behind the Palestinians and Hamas…right? Feel free.
Ah yes…I saw Red using the ‘Americans is ignorant’ gambit earlier, and I am militantly unsurprised to see you echoing him on this. Again, feel free to demonstrate this universal (except for ig-no-rant 'Mericans of course) sympathy for Hamas and Palestine and how history is showing that they are on the right side of, er, it. Otherwise, all you’ve done is a rather sad second hand attempt at an appeal to straw…sorry to say that Red’s was at least more amusing.
So…wait. You are saying that because of your assertion that Gandhi was ‘no fan of Zionism’ and an ‘anti-Semite’ that this invalidates attempting to use non-violent movements by the Palestinians?? Well, I guess that explains why they would go with the rockets then…they wouldn’t want to be painted with that ‘we are opposed to Zionism and are anti-Semites’ broad brush by associating with Gandhi…no doubt about that! Good point, and definitely no irony in any of this stuff…no sir…
And, with that I think I’ll bid this discussion closed. I mean, this last part especially was pretty amusing (well, I thought it was), but there is really no debate in any of this as far as I can tell…and, really, how do you debate with folks like you and Red who are true believers?
Hamas doesn’t. And can you tell me what the difference in principle is between “1967 borders” and “2012 borders”? Both are the result of a war.
The Canadian government unconditionally supports Israel. The EU does too, and condemns terrorist Hamas. I haven’t checked Australia but I doubt they’ve gone pro-terrorist recently.
If people are going to throw around the term “terrorist” so easily, a term I abhor, then they might want to keep in mind that two Israeli PMs during my lifetime, Begin and Shamir, were ex-terrorists(if one views the IRA as a terrorist organization), the current PM is the son of terrorist and the ruling party of Israel for most of the past several decades, Likud, grew out of the ashes of two “terrorist” groups, the Irgun and Lehi.
I won’t pretend I have anything but contempt for those try and excuse atrocities by Palestinian guerillas/terrorists and who whine about Israeli atrocities but are so ignorant of the history of the region that they’re unable to refer to arguments and example that are practically jumping up and down saying “pick me, pick me!”.
At the same time, I want to vomit whenever I hear people squeal about how the Palestinians condone terrorism while the Israelis don’t, or words to that effect.
The answer to your query is right in the post you’re quoting.
Calm down.
First, if you’d read what Gandhi said or wrote about Zionism and Jews in general and put that in the current evaluation system it would be deemed anti-Semitic. For example, Gandhi wrote in 1938 the following:
Find anyone who would be willing to say this TODAY. Hope we can agree that anyone who would publicly state the above would be immediately labeled anti-Semite - no debate.
Second, in the light of above quote, I also said it is ironic for a Zionists to suggest to Palestinians that they should employ Gandhi’s non-violence where Gandhi already established that the idea of having a Jewish state in the Palestine “a crime against humanity” in the first place.
Nuance and education. Remember, that was your advice - and other Dopers, I might add. Now, suddenly, nobody knows anything. Weird…
So what other meaningful military methods are at their disposal? Its been 60+ years, these guys are not giving up for a deal that is based on a real shitty bargaining position so you either offer them more than they could possibly ever expect to achieve in the forseeable future or it keeps going until they actually decide they’ve had enough after 60+ years of this shit.
I wouldn’t hold my breath on them giving up and one day they may have a nuke.
Well, they did vote them into power so its not like its a tyranny of the minority. It would be nice if there were more frequent elections but people seem preoccupied with other stuff.
So noone complained about the US war in Iraq?
War doesn’t suddenly immunize the participants from criticism.
No idea. Whether declared or not, there seem to be some hostilities.
I don’t want to fall into the trap of assuming that both sides are equally bad but this seems like a much closer case than the sort of “both sides are bad” reasoning we see in the conflicts between our political parties.
Then it should be very easy for you to find some prominent, mainstream Jewish leaders who’ve claimed all critics of Israel or Zionism are anti-Semites.
Please do so.
Put up or shut up.
I have.
What did Ghandi say about “Jews in general” that would get him labeled an anti-Semite.
I didn’t realize you’d never heard of Christopher Hitchens.
For that matter, why isn’t Mahatma Ghandi regularly called an anti-Semite if it’s impossible to say anything bad about Israel.
I’ve said plenty of stuff at least as bad about Israel and can’t remember being called an anti-Semite.
Do you think most dopers consider me an anti-Semite?
If not, doesn’t that prove your assertion is moronic?
:rolleyes: