I hope that Egypt rises to Israel’s level of moral superiority. But I’m not optimistic.
RedFury,
You probably don’t remember me, as I haven’t posted here for some years now. So, for the record: I’m Israeli, a Jew by birth and an atheist by (dis)belief. And while most of what you write WRT Israel rubs me the wrong way, this post resonated with me:
And yet, while I tend to agree with you on this, I would still fight to keep Israel a Jewish state (preferably a secular Jewish state – and that’s not an oxymoron), for two main reasons:
- The alternative, at least for the foreseeable future, is an Arab, Muslim regime. And judging from similar states around here, I sure do prefer the current state of matters.
- History taught us again and again that while Jews may see themselves as <insert a country of choice> people first and Jews second, as atheists, or even as non-Jews at all, the surrounding people sometimes have a different view on the matter. So a (relatively) safe place for Jews to go to in times of troubles is probably not such a bad idea.
If you put your religious beliefs before your humanity, or worse still, think your religious beliefs are what makes you human, I see no reason why I should give your thoughts on any other matter the slightest consideration, except to phrase my telling you how wrong you are.
Nitpick unrelated to the thread topic : there are no US bases in France. Those that existed were closed when De Gaulle decided that France would leave NATO’s unified command.
Shinto is no longer Japan’s state religion, hasn’t been since the end of WWII. The Imperial Household Agency caught living hell over that some years ago when they, and specifically the Emperor, tried to act like it still was.
We’re not talking about Saudi Arabia, which isn’t a democracy.
By the standard you just set, it’s wrong to call Israel a Jewish democracy since Islam and Christianity are present in the country(in vastly larger number than Protestants are in Eire) and are allowed to practice openly.
I merely pointed out that there are many countries, including many European countries, which have official religions.
My point was if it’s okay to have a Jewish democracy and a number of Christian democracies, what’s wrong with a Muslim democracy?
Obviously that doesn’t mean Iran or Saudi Arabia.
I’m not sure your point. Are you under the impression that I supported the invasion. I didn’t and I can’t imagine why you think I would.
Had I been claiming that Europe was going through a religious revival you might have a point, but I wasn’t so you don’t.
I merely pointed out that there are a number of countries in Europe with official state religions so I see nothing wrong with the Government of Iraq or Egypt declaring themselves Muslim democracies and classifying Islam as their state religion.
Getting upset about Iraq declaring itself a Muslim democracy but not at the governments of various European countries who have official state religions is bluntly put, bigotry plain and simple.
Perhaps you wish most democracies were completely secular and practices separation of Church and State, but France, the US, and Turkey are the exception not the rule.
Thanks for the correction.
I thought the Emperor was still required to perform a number of Shinto functions and therefore it still was.
Apparently he merely wishes it still was.
Well there’s nothing wrong with a Muslim democracy but I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing. Do you mean a country with an official religion (of Islam)?
And I don’t agree with your exceptions to the rule. you gave Ireland as an example of a Christian Democracy and it’s simply untrue. I would ask for a cite of any country that has a government based on Christianity or am I mistaken in your statement and you’re saying there are predominately Christian nations which are also Democratic. Maybe I’m confused on what you’re referring to.
The Vatican. But if that is the definition of “Christian Democracy” - democracy with a “government based on Christianity”, then Israel is not a “Judaic Democracy”. Its government is not “based on Judaism”.
Yes.
Except for the fact that the 1937 Constitution makes Roman Catholicism the official religion of the Republic.
If you want to be technical I should have referred to it as “a Catholic democracy”.
The Roman Catholic Church still has immense influence, controlling, until recently, most of the hospitals in the Republic for example, ensuring that abortion in all instances is banned, drastically limiting contraception, and until about twent years ago, banning divorce.
By your standards then Israel isn’t a Jewish democracy because it’s not based on Judaism.
Anyway as I said there are a number of countries where there is intermingling of religion and government and where specific Christian denominations have official recognition.
What’s wrong with Muslim democracies and Jewish democracies if Christian democracies are kosher?
OK, same page.
ah, you’re looking at old information. That’s been abandoned in the latter half of that century.
definitely a voting force.
I’d say it’s the ultimate religious state because it’s based on the survival of a people and it’s based on a demographic of the religion to the voting exclusion of other religions.
Countries that were once based on Christianity have moved beyond the religion. Islamic countries, with the tenuous example of Turkey, have not. Islam specifically incorporates government into it’s doctrine where Christianity had no such directive. Not that it stopped governments from using the power of the religion to dominate by decree it really wasn’t codified to be so and was eventually brought down from within because of that. I think it was an easier transition to go from Christianity to secularism than for Islam to transition as such and that’s why we see the same social and political structures in Muslim countries to this day despite the changes in the world around them.
I have no way of separating out the social (tribal) component that seems to be intertwined among the Islamic states because it appears to me that it spans the various versions of the religion.
No, that’s not true. Ireland certainly does not practice separation of Church and State.
Moreover, there are a number of western countries which have official state religions and few, such as the US, Turkey, and France which actually practice separation of Church and State.
The Scandinavian countries and the UK are other obvious examples.
Magiver: What’s your take on the preamble to the constitution of Ireland? AFAIK, that has not been amended.
Also, since when are Israeli citizens who are not Jewish prohibited from voting?
What are you talking about?
There are around 60 Islamic countries in the world and about the only ones that could be considered theocracies are Saudia Arabia, Iran, and Sudan.
Or to put it another way, three countries, though I may have forgotten one or two. Obviously there are many others where there is some official recognition of Islam but you seem to believe most are theocracies whereas only tiny number are.
Whatever your take on it, the fact is that your refernce to the 1937 Constitution is out of date. The position of the RCC as the country’s official religion was removed by the Fifth Amendment in 1972. The Trinity and Christ are still mentioned in the preamble, but the specific reference to the RCC is gone.
That is true but Eire certainly does not practice separation of Church and State, continued to give the Catholic Church all sorts of benefits.
Moreover, as mentioned, it’s hardly the only country where the governments give some sort of recognition to various religious groups.
Many western countries do have official religions.
The US, Turkey, and France are the exception not the rule.
Canada, the UK, and Sweden are far more common.
None of them of course are theocracies, nor is Israel so there’s no reason to get upset about the government of Iraq giving official recognition to Islam.
Would I prefer Canada, Sweden and the rest be more like the US? Sure, but that doesn’t mean we should punish Muslim countries who want “Muslim democracies”.
Giving citizenship to more than 1 million Muslims since 1988 might explain why there is no thread criticizing Germany for refusing citizenship to Muslims. Not caring about the religion of an applicant could be another reason.
If the Wikipedia article is’nt totally wrong there are 12 countries with a “christian”-state religion and 26 with a muslim-state religion.
But I think the big difference is how the state religion is handled. Take this picture and start looking for trouble with the authorities in any of the “christian” countries. Then do the same with one of the infamous Muhammad cartoons in the muslim countries. I believe the reactions will be quite different.
I thought I’d cited it in my earlier post but only made mention of the timeline. Their 5th amendment.
As far as Israel is concerned it was set up as a Jewish state and it will certainly be maintained as a Jewish state. Whether it’s through extension of Jewish settlements to displace non-Jewish settlements or outright revision of their constitution there will never be a majority voting block that is not Jewish.
I didn’t ask about the Catholic church no longer being officially the state religion. I specifically asked about the Preamble. You know, that thing that still specifically states that the Holy Trinity is the source of all authority and specifically mentions folks’ obligations to Jesus Christ.
And I asked since when non-Jewish citizens in Israel are not permitted the vote. AFAIK, and your response doesn’t change my knowledge on the issue, such citizens are, in fact, permitted to vote and also to serve in the Knesset.