Opposition to the wall - moral, financial, practical, or otherwise

[k9bfriender]

@magellan01

Why should people on the lower end of the economic spectrum suffer artificially low wages so you can eat strawberries? And it appears you don’t grasp the math of how much of the cost of produce is labor.

Because people on the lower end of the economic spectrum will be priced out of any sort of fresh produce at $100 an apple.

You say you want to offer $100 an hour to pick fruit to US citizens? Sure, people will take you up on that offer, and they will lazily wander about and pick a quarter or less than what your average migrant worker will do.

Then secure the border and start a guest worker program.

The border cannot be secured until a viable guest worker program is created.

No matter what you do at the border, people will find a way to get through if they have a strong enough desire to do so. As the majority of undocumented workers do not even come in through the border, the claim that the border needs to be secure before we address the mess that is our immigration policy is a red herring.

Addressing immigration reform will severely decrease the number of people who wish to make an illegal crossing, therefore securing the border much more than any wall could ever do.

Also, there seems to be this notion that the only way to have migrant workers—IF we need then—is by keeping the border porous. That’s a fail in logic. There is zero reason to not have a secure border and be able to know who everyone is who enters our country.

That does seem to be a notion that is repeatedly insisted upon by people who are against immigration, both legal and illegal, but it is not a notion that is in any way entertained by those who would like to see immigration reform.

I’m all for knowing who is entering our country, it is those who insist upon creating immigration policies that they know people will not follow that are creating a situation where we have people coming across through improper points of entry. It allows violent and dangerous criminals to hide amongst those whose only crime is seeking a way out of abject poverty and violence for themselves and their family.

Lets say that you have imposed a 2MPH speed limit on the interstate through your city. People tend to speed, breaking the law that you have created.

You have two choices, double down on enforcement, and spend enormous resources trying to make damn sure that no one breaks the law that you have created (and failing), or look at the law itself, and see if it actually makes sense for the goals you are trying to accomplish. Would your response be that you will not consider raising the speed limit until everyone is complying with it and sufficient enforcement mechanisms are in place to ensure 100% compliance?

[Ann_Hedonia]

NM…

Sorry, posted in the wrong thread

[DrDeth]

@magellan01

Why should people on the lower end of the economic spectrum suffer artificially low wages so you can eat strawberries? And it appears you don’t grasp the math of how much of the cost of produce is labor.

Also, there seems to be this notion that the only way to have migrant workers—IF we need then—is by keeping the border porous. That’s a fail in logic. There is zero reason to not have a secure border and be able to know who everyone is who enters our country.

Because they don’t suffer artificially low wages . They pay is actually quite good. The issue is that the work is not year around.

That’s a wonderful idea, but we have to vote out the racists in order to get it. The Wall has nothing to do with a “secure border” and everything to do with xenophobic & racist fear mongering.

We have no “secure border” with Canada. All the EU have mostly open borders.

“Secure border” is fear mongering racist xenophobia.

[magellan01]

@DrDeth

Because they don’t suffer artificially low wages . They pay is actually quite good. The issue is that the work is not year around.

Wages can both be “good” and artificially low. When you have an abundance of labor, the cost of it goes down. When the labor market is tight, the wages for labor go up. This is very basic economics, supply and demand.

@DrDeth

The Wall has nothing to do with a “secure border” and everything to do with xenophobic & racist fear mongering.

Says you. Yet, the two stretches of barriers we have ARE helping to secure the border. And by the way, your inaccurate claims about fear mongering are themselves fear mongering. So, you might want to stop it. Just a thought.

@DrDeth

We have no “secure border” with Canada.

Hmmm, wonder why. Any guesses on your part that are not racist in explanation. Could it be that there isn’t a history of millions of people sneaking across the border for the past 30 year?

@DrDeth

All the EU have mostly open borders.

Nope. Some do have substantial barriers. With more being built as I type this. Why? Because they work. And a non-European country knows that better than anyone. I notice you didn’t mention Israel and their wall on their southern border with Egypt that was built to keep out illegal immigrants. Result: 99% effective.

@DrDeth

“Secure border” is fear mongering racist xenophobia.

Nonsense. It is an effective tool is securing one’s border. Nothing more, nothing less, despite your desire to paint it otherwise.

[JohnT]

Magellen, the US has been a society where people have “snuck in” since, oh, 1612 or so. RELAX.

[magellan01]

@k9bfriender

Because people on the lower end of the economic spectrum will be priced out of any sort of fresh produce at $100 an apple.

It’s called a thought experiment. There will not be $100 apples. Unless, of course, the Dems get enough power to make the U.S. more socialistic and we turn into the next Venezuela.

@k9bfriender

You say you want to offer $100 an hour to pick fruit to US citizens? Sure, people will take you up on that offer, and they will lazily wander about and pick a quarter or less than what your average migrant worker will do.

So you admit that people will want to do the jobs that Americans are not supposed to want to do. Good. Now we just disagree on how lazy American workers are. But even if some of them are as lazy or poor at their jobs as you project, why wouldn’t these people just be fired from these high-paying jobs and replaced? Seems like a simple problem to fix if you have attractive jobs.

@k9bfriender

The border cannot be secured until a viable guest worker program is created.

Sure it can. The only thing we need to secure the border is the will to do so.

@k9bfriender

No matter what you do at the border, people will find a way to get through if they have a strong enough desire to do so. As the majority of undocumented workers do not even come in through the border, the claim that the border needs to be secure before we address the mess that is our immigration policy is a red herring.

It is true that recently the number of people existing here illegally through overstaying visas has slightly outpaced illegal crossers. But it’s hard to accurately know the number of people who crossed illegally that you did NOT catch. I do agree that we need a comprehensive change to the whole immigration system. But I do think it start with securing the border, particularly if you have any desire to create a path to citizenship for those already here. I’d also immediately clamp down on those hiring illegals, as well as remove carrots like in-state tuition.

@k9bfriender

Addressing immigration reform will severely decrease the number of people who wish to make an illegal crossing, therefore securing the border much more than any wall could ever do.

…

I’m all for knowing who is entering our country, it is those who insist upon creating immigration policies that they know people will not follow that are creating a situation where we have people coming across through improper points of entry. It allows violent and dangerous criminals to hide amongst those whose only crime is seeking a way out of abject poverty and violence for themselves and their family.

Well, if you’re “all for” knowing who is entering our country, then you should want a super secure border. Because if people do mange to sneak in, you’ll have no idea who they are.

[magellan01]

@JohnT

Magellen, the US has been a society where people have “snuck in” since, oh, 1612 or so. RELAX.

Not true. I’ll leave it to you to figure out why.

But using your logic, would you advocate a world with no effective borders?

[JohnT]

Since “countries” are a social construct which didn’t even exist 600+ years ago except for parts of Europe, sure, why not.

Anyway, as said before, you’re not getting your wall.

[magellan01]

@JohnT

Since “countries” are a social construct which didn’t even exist 600+ years ago except for parts of Europe, sure, why not.

Anyway, as said before, you’re not getting your wall.

Well, it remains to be seen how much new barrier will be erected. But whatever it is, the new construction and the existing will be our wall.

Again, do you advocate for a world with no effective borders?

[JohnT]

I have zero fear of some poor people in Guatemala coming here and taking my job/eating my food/whatever I’m supposed to be scared of.

Do I advocate for a world with “no effective borders”? I don’t advocate for much at all, but if we work up tomorrow with all borders supposedly outlawed, with free movement of humanity to wherever the hell they wish to go to, I would be far more interested in how it all shakes out than worried about how this would impact myself or the entity known as “the United States of America”.

[DrDeth]

@magellan01

…

Says you. Yet, the two stretches of barriers we have ARE helping to secure the border. And by the way, your inaccurate claims about fear mongering are themselves fear mongering. So, you might want to stop it. Just a thought.

Hmmm, wonder why. Any guesses on your part that are not racist in explanation. Could it be that there isn’t a history of millions of people sneaking across the border for the past 30 year?

.

“Secure the border”? Do we fear a invasion from Mexico? The only reason to be concerned about guys wanting to come into the USA to do work Americans dont want to do- is racism.

Indeed, illegal immigrants do come from Canada. Not many but they also come from China, Korea, India etc- and those dont come across a land border.

And if you think you need a “secure border” why dont you need one from the North? Maybe because they are white?

[magellan01]

@DrDeth

“Secure the border”? Do we fear a invasion from Mexico? The only reason to be concerned about guys wanting to come into the USA to do work Americans dont want to do- is racism.

Ha ha. So even when you are presented with non-race reasons to have a secure border you still repeat the factually untrue statement that the only reason to be concerned about who is cooing into your country is racism. You can lead a horse to water…

@DrDeth

Indeed, illegal immigrants do come from Canada. Not many but they also come from China, Korea, India etc- and those dont come across a land border.

And your point is?

We should be looking to stop them, too. Are you under the comical notion that those who want a secure border want to turn a blind eye to visa overseers and the like? Well, let me help you out, they’re not.

@DrDeth

And if you think you need a “secure border” why dont you need one from the North? Maybe because they are white?

Are you reading what I write? Or are your brain and fingers set to automatic. We don’t need one there because millions of people are not trying to sneak in over our northern border. The main reason is that the people living beyond our northern border aren’t as eager to come into the U.S. as those beyond our southern border. Do you really not know this? Newsflash: not everyone is on fixated on race as you evidently are. Give it a rest, for Chrissakes. :rolleyes:

[Slash1972]

@magellan01

We don’t need one there because millions of people are not trying to sneak in over our northern border.

How do you know they are not? There’s no wall to stop them.

[magellan01]

@Slash1972

How do you know they are not? There’s no wall to stop them.

I charter a plane every year and sprinkle Anti-Sneaking-In Dust along the entirety of the northern border. It works perfectly. If you have information to the contrary, I would be eager to hear it and adjust efforts accordingly.

[Procrustus]

@magellan01

I charter a plane every year and sprinkle Anti-Sneaking-In Dust along the entirety of the northern border. It works perfectly. If you have information to the contrary, I would be eager to hear it and adjust efforts accordingly.

Would you mind hitting the Southern Border this year? That would save us all a lot of hassle with the wall and all that other crap.

[Slash1972]

@magellan01

I charter a plane every year and sprinkle Anti-Sneaking-In Dust along the entirety of the northern border. It works perfectly. If you have information to the contrary, I would be eager to hear it and adjust efforts accordingly.

It seems to me that a lot of people use a variance of “We don’t know how many people are sneaking over our Southern Border, that’s why we need a wall!”

Same could be said for the Northern Border.

[k9bfriender]

@magellan01

It’s called a thought experiment. There will not be $100 apples.

Okay, be specific. What wage would be required to get US citizens to pick apples? What rate would they pick apples at? How much will this increase the cost of an apple at the supermarket?

You point out that labor is not the largest contributor to the price, and this is partially true. It is true, however, that companies do not increase the price with the increase in their cost, they try to maintain their markup over the costs. So, if the labor of picking one apple changes form $0.05 to $0.50, that doesn’t meant that the apple goes from $1.05 to $1.50, but rather, would settle around closer to $10.

This is a fallacy that many republicans fell prey to when it came to the tariffs as well. While it demonstrates and utter ignorance of how businesses work, it does seem to be the basic republican belief.

Unless, of course, the Dems get enough power to make the U.S. more socialistic and we turn into the next Venezuela.

No, then apples come for free along with your free doctor visit. We have to pass through Canada and Sweden before we can get to Venezuela, and we would also have to be in a situation where our economy was entirely powered by one natural resource that then loses value.

So you admit that people will want to do the jobs that Americans are not supposed to want to do.

Yes, I “admit” that there are price points that get people to show up. Now, getting them to actually be worth a damn when they do, that’s a different matter.

Good. Now we just disagree on how lazy American workers are.

Yeah, I’ve actually worked with, for and had them work for me. there are some who are not all that lazy, but not enough to get our fields cleared before it rots.

But even if some of them are as lazy or poor at their jobs as you project, why wouldn’t these people just be fired from these high-paying jobs and replaced? Seems like a simple problem to fix if you have attractive jobs.

Sure, and replace them with someone else that will also be lazy, or who will become lazy once they see that their co-workers are and getting paid the same.

Sure it can. The only thing we need to secure the border is the will to do so.

And a wall taller than any ladder, a way to prevent tunnels, and a crackdown at all other ports of entry.

Machine gun nests and attack dogs will probably be necessary as well.

It is true that recently the number of people existing here illegally through overstaying visas has slightly outpaced illegal crossers. But it’s hard to accurately know the number of people who crossed illegally that you did NOT catch. I do agree that we need a comprehensive change to the whole immigration system.

And do you think that change needs to have more or less legal immigration from countries south of our border?

But I do think it start with securing the border, particularly if you have any desire to create a path to citizenship for those already here.

The border is already pretty secure. It is only those who are pretty desperate that make the attempt to get through. If they could instead go through a proper point of entry, and be accepted, then no almost one would try to make the illegal crossing. The few who would we would know to look out for, as they are the ones who we would not accept at a border crossing.

I’d also immediately clamp down on those hiring illegals,

Easier said than done, as has been discussed in this and other similar threads.

Basically, in order to really stop the use of undocumented labor, it would require that all eligible workers submit to having their biometrics on file with the federal government. This is something that many citizens resist for a number of reasons. Would this be something that you would accept or advocate for?

as well as remove carrots like in-state tuition.

That’s a state thing, so unless you are saying that the federal government should tell states how to run themselves, I don’t see how that can be achieved at the fed level. Sure, call your state rep about it, but if you are not in a state that allows undocumented immigrants to send their children to school with in-state tuition, then you have no say.

I may point out that the reason for in state tuition is because, as a resident of that state, you pay taxes to that state.

Well, if you’re “all for” knowing who is entering our country, then you should want a super secure border. Because if people do mange to sneak in, you’ll have no idea who they are.

No matter how “super secure” you make your border, it will always be possible for people to sneak in. If you remove then incentive for people to sneak in, then your border becomes far more secure.

[Buck_Godot]

Here is the argument as I see it.

Republican: We have a crisis at the border with so many illegal alliens streaming over
Democrats: So the problem is that there are too many brown people
Republican: No I never said that, the problem is that they are illegal.
Democrats: So you support legal immigrants just not Illegal ones.
Republican: Exactly.
Democrat: So if we made all of the illegal immigrants legal that would solve the problem and you would be happy.
Republican: No of course not that would be amnesty we can’t have that.
Democrat: Because?
Republican: It would reward illegal immigration. leading to more illegal immigrants which as we said we hate.
Democrat: But if they were all legal?
Republican: There would be too many of them, we don’t have enough jobs to support them all.
Democrat: Oh so the problem is that there are too many people in the US. So you support birth control and planned parenthood.
Republican: No of course not, our children are our greatest asset. In fact,if we don’t start having more babies we could be in trouble down the road.
Democrat: So you support there being more people in the US, just more of the right kind of people.
Republican: Exactly, we need more people who look like us, not more of that other sort of people.
Democrat: Well it’s nice to know that it has nothing to do with race.

[CarnalK]

Your little dialogue basically has the Dem side suggesting open borders (" So if we made all of the illegal immigrants legal that would solve the problem and you would be happy.") That is not a mainstream Dem position.

[Ruken]

@k9bfriender

It is true, however, that companies do not increase the price with the increase in their cost, they try to maintain their markup over the costs. So, if the labor of picking one apple changes form $0.05 to $0.50, that doesn’t meant that the apple goes from $1.05 to $1.50, but rather, would settle around closer to $10.

Prove it. There are real examples of agricultural labor costs increasing in recent history. See CIW’s FFP. No need even for a thought experiment there.

I’m no fan of The Wall[sup]TM[/sup], but I’m even less a fan of poor arguments, which do more harm than good.

Our consumption of hand-picked produce is, on average, low. Supply and demand work both ways. A seller willing to accept a lower margin vs a seller who tries to charge $10 per apple . . . who will win? My money is on the lower margin. Never mind that we’re already importing a quarter billion USD of apples each year, which provides downward pressure. Yes, from low-wage Chile, but #2 and 3 are Canada and New Zealand. Not all fruit is easily shippable (e.g. raspberries, although they do it, with IMO mixed success), but we’re already at something like 50% imports for fruit (by sales, per USDA ERS).

Yes, stopping all low-wage labor provided by immigrants or migrants will be disruptive to the fruit industry. And I’m probably not in favor of it. But $10 apples is pure fantasy.