Oppositional Defiance Disorder

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

This is not the Pit, so I will temper my reply.
I deleted my earlier response, answering your quotes point by point.

Far easier is just to say this - the OP wrote about a specific condition, and asked for help. If you knew nothing about this condition, then why did you feel the need to respond, especially in such a negative and denigrating manner?

In post #2, I said that no one would dare to insult or put down a parent if their child had diabetes or cancer - why is a mental illness that much different? How is a chemical imbalance in the brain that much different from a child with a non-functioning pancreas?

You said that your child is on the spectrum - do you blame yourself? In 1949 Leo Kanner said that "autism may be related to a ‘genuine lack of maternal warmth’, noted that fathers rarely stepped down to indulge in children’s play, and observed that children were exposed from “the beginning to parental coldness, obsessiveness, and a mechanical type of attention to material needs only… They were left neatly in refrigerators which did not defrost. Their withdrawal seems to be an act of turning away from such a situation to seek comfort in solitude.” In a 1960 interview, Kanner bluntly described parents of autistic children as “just happening to defrost enough to produce a child.” [see Refrigerator Mother Theory in Wikipedia]

Did that theory upset you? What would you say if you were blamed this way for your child’s autism?

My apologies to anyone dealing with autism in their lives - of course this “theory” was widely debunked, but how hurtful it is to be told that your child would not be suffering if only you were not a “shitty, lazy, ignorant, disengaged parent[s]”.

:mad:
PS, thanks to those who responded to Dinsdale much more eloquently than I did

22

Parent of a child on the spectrum. Feel serious guilt even though we know it is genetic and not a lack of parental love. If you’re a parent, you know that you don’t get an instruction manual from the hospital. And if your child has special needs/is non neuro-typical, it can be hard to recognize, and then harder to know what kind of help you need. Dunno how many charlatans out there have thrown an autism “cure” our way. Anyhoo, my point being it’s hard to know what to do as a parent, even with help after recognition of the challenges.

23

What, and pass up an opportunity to harshly judge mental illness, other people’s parenting or—bonus!—other people parenting kids who have mental illness? Unpossible.

24

On a near daily basis, my work for the past 30 years has had me study the medical/educational backgrounds of, and interact with adults and children alleging all manner of physical/mental/emotional impairments. By all means, not all are disingenuous. But IMO at least SOME percentage are. And not all medical professionals are whores. But IMO some are.

My initial point concerned the bemoaning of a lack of “better public awareness.” I guess I had certain expectations of myself as a parent, and I tend to look first to what those most intimately involved did or did not do, before questioning what more society ought to have done. The OP’s kid is 14. My son is turning 30. I find it hard to believe there has been less information and fewer services available over the past 14 years than were available in the 14 years before that. I’m sure there are countless reasons a parent may have been unable to access or act upon that information.

I understand that folk view things differently.

And don’t feel I am unfairly critical of mental illness and mental health providers! Don’t get me STARTED on fibromyalgia and pain management clinics! :smiley:

25

Dinsdale, society (ie. teachers, friends, other parents, etc.) told us that our son was ‘probably going through a phase he’d grow out of’, or was a ‘spirited boy with an active imagination’ and any number of other things that appear now to have been intended to comfort his parents with reassurances that our son was normal. We as parents really wanted to believe that - he’s our only child and, frankly, we had no other referent to compare. So we assumed that we were somehow just bad parents or hadn’t tried hard or consistently enough to be more effective disciplinarians and that his disregard for rules, authority, or even plain common courtesy was somehow our fault.

My point was that had there been better public awareness there likely would not have been so many well-intentioned re-assurances and more ‘look, you should consider some sort of intervention’ type comments, and probably we’d have known to seek professional intervention much sooner. But that didn’t happen. Until recently, we’d never even heard of the condition.

26

I understand you so much more now. My hope for you is that after you finish your job looking for evidence against patients and medical professionals that you redevelop empathy.

27

I truly understand that. I would hope any parent would acknowledge that kids differ in so many ways, and that so man things crop up that the parent is always trying to figure out, “Is this an emergency, or do I let it slide” and every other conceivable spot on that continuum.

Yeah, I acknowledge that the issues we faced with our kids are nowhere near as severe as many others face. It seems we were constantly trying to figure out: Are we being TOO involved? Is this just normal variation/development? Is this important enough to make a big deal out of it? And yeah - there is a strong urge to hope for the best, and assume you just weren’t unlucky enough to end up on the wrong side of a bad roll of the genetic dice.

I dunno what made us aware/alert enough to figure out early on that our son needed some extra attention. And yeah, we were VERY fortunate his issues were pretty minor in the grand scheme of things. I can tell you countless other things we could have addressed better at an earlier point with our 3 kids. And when I see my 3 kids as adults, I occasionally wonder what I could have done better/differently to have them in even better places than they are.

I would have thought it was clear that I was NOT saying that there is no such thing as ODD, that all persons w/ ODD reflect bad parenting, etc. Books have been written on the efficacy of mental health diagnoses and treatment. We are not going to resolve such debates in this thread.

Nawth Chuka - I find empathy to be a somewhat challenging word. My wife is currently reading a book on empathy, and from the very start it states how empathy means different things to different people. I’m a pretty big fan of letting people perceive and present themselves however they want. But to me, empathy does not mean simply accepting at face value everything everyone says, and giving them whatever special treatment they feel they ought to receive. I have no desire of abandoning my ability for critical thinking when I retire.

28

In some ways, Dins, the educational system has the same jadiness you do. Tired of parents getting their kids labels so they can have extra time on SATs or don’t ever need to turn in homework - and having to do the extra work of making sure Sarah has complete quiet for her test while Justin gets to wander around the room during his - the educational system is quick to downplay any concerns a parent might have into “they’ll grow out of it.” Parents are looking to teachers - who see dozens of kids at a time, hundreds in a few years - to help identify normal. Pediatricians are pushed by insurance companies to see as many patients in a day as possible and can’t take time to do an evaluation. Professional evaluations are often not covered by the district without a teacher referral (which you didn’t get because the teacher doesn’t need another IEP) or covered by insurance unless there is a teacher referral.

29

I agree with all you say. And school systems have limited staff/budgets.

But at least SOME student “behavior” issues reflect - at least in part - questionable parenting. Not always the parents’ “fault” either. Many a parent has mental/emotional/other problems that interfere with their parenting.

But I can’t tell you how many IEPs I review in which the unemployed parent didn’t see fit to attend. Or families in which no one is employed and multiple family members are receiving some sort of public payment.

30

So you’re basically threadshitting in a thread where someone asks for help with a specific disorder which you admittedly know nothing about, but you are sure that some parents somewhere are doing a poor job of something.

31

And those were the kinds of “parents” I was referencing in my earlier post, and that includes grandparents who are raising yet another generation of dysfunctional people. That last sentence would also include families where all the adults are incarcerated.

There’s also that “nature vs. nurture” thing. Is the child the way they are because of their environment, or is it because it’s a genetic thing?

One way to determine whether a child’s mental health diagnosis, most commonly ADHD, is “real” is whether the parents (okay, face it, mothers) brag about it. If they don’t, and try to keep their lives as normal as possible and tell only the people that they feel need to know, the diagnosis is genuine.

32

Right - other than that I regularly have lengthy personal interactions with people carrying purported diagnoses of ODD, discuss it with their parents, discuss the condition with mental health professionals, obtain opinions from teachers, and review medical and school records.

You’re right - I know nothing about it. :rolleyes:

Not sure whether you need another cup or have had too much…

33

>deep breath<

Did either you or Dinsdale even read the OP? Let me quote it for you:

Any parents here have children diagnosed with ODD? How did/do you deal?
*
That’s it. Two short sentences, about a parent seeking help (and hope) for a troubled child and his family.
Yes, threads can sometimes go off the rails, but let’s just imagine the OP was slightly different:

*Any parents here have children diagnosed with cancer? How did/do you deal?
*

Would you have started talking about parents trying to game the system? About whether the OP bragged about his child’s cancer?

Dinsdale, you just said that you “regularly have lengthy personal interactions with people carrying purported diagnoses of ODD, discuss it with their parents, discuss the condition with mental health professionals, obtain opinions from teachers, and review medical and school records.”
If this is true, then why did you earlier discuss “shitty, lazy, ignorant, disengaged parents”? If you do have knowledge of this disorder, why would you use such hateful and inflammatory language about parents of children with ODD?

No one entered this thread to ask how to receive benefits for a “purported” disease (your words). If they did, then you would have every reason to discuss your personal experiences with such people.

But this was a simple plea for answers and support (not financial support).

I hope you and your family never have need for such answers and support.

34

So, all-knowing one, what do you recommend for the OP? If you recall, that’s what the OP asked for. Some help.

Where are these purported people you purportedly deal with getting this purported diagnosis of ODD anyway? I myself had never heard of it till my kid’s counselor suggested I look into it. Did they just make it up?

35

Did you even read the OP’s SECOND POST? The one I specifically referred to in my initial post?

Because I’ve met them. Often.

And if you read what I wrote, instead of what suits your umbrage, you’ll see I referred to people carrying purported diagnoses. At no point did I suggest that ODD does not exits.

I repeat, I encounter them regularly. If you are bent on getting disability benefits for/from your kid, it isn’t exactly difficult to figure out what to claim.

And I do not think I am the first or only person to ever suspect that some mental conditions are overdiagnosed in children as well as adults. Your opinion may obviously differ.

36

So, the parents who brag about their kids’ peanut allergies, it’s okay for me to go ahead and feed them my signature peanute butter chocolate chip cookies, right? Good to know.

I mean, if they mention it often enough they ARE bragging, right?

37

Frankly I have never heard of people applying for disability benefits for their kids when their kids are in middle school. Like, to replace that kid’s income?

But it’s pretty clear the OP did not come onto this message board to apply for benefits of some kind on behalf of his kid. So did you just come into the thread to tell him he likely doesn’t have it, so not to worry? Or to comment on his lack of parenting skills? Or is it disbelief that he hadn’t heard about ODD?

OP’s second post was about how he’d never heard of this until someone told him his kid had it. I think the general public has never heard of it. I’m pretty aware, and I’d never heard of it until the kid’s counselor told me about it. Unlike the ADHD and “spectrum” disorders.

When does it switch to an actual diagnosis from a “purported” one, and who makes that call?

38

Doctors can make diagnoses, but Dinsdale makes the decisions that will help or hinder the family of the patient.

39

My son was diagnosed with this secondary to his ASD. We ended up tackling it two ways: with behavioral changes and with psychiatric help. He has made huge strides. Behaviorally we worked on improving the flexibility of his thinking. For example, it’s not: “time to do homework”, it’s “would you like to do homework before or after your snack”. He’s making the choice, we’re setting parameters. Giving him time to think about an upcoming decision, trip, dinner, before it happens is critical. It’s not “we’re leaving now, get ready.” It’s, “Later today, we’re going to do [activity].” If you can, allow him some say in the activity, or what he wears, or when you leave or something.

Dodge arguments, and redirect him. Redirection is an entire thread I suspect. It’s distraction, changing the subject, changing his focus away from that argument he was just about to dig into and moving onto something else. Sometimes that’s just changing the conversation to the Avengers, sometimes it’s asking him to take a 15 minute break.

Rewarding positive behavior is HUGE. When he makes a flexible choice, rather than going straight to the argument, reward it. Anything from a star chart, to a movie, to just a “good job” and a hug. Even just telling him “it really helped me when you did ‘x’”. I expect that your kiddo hears a whole lot about what they’re doing wrong. Make a point to find the things they are doing right. Pile on the positives.

Find a psychiatrist who works with teens. One of the medications my son was on to help with mood regulation also helped with the ODD. Even if you decide not to try medication, I think having a qualified Dr working with your kiddo is extremely helpful.

Think of this as sculpting stone with water. You will not see enormous changes in a day, or a week, but if you keep at it, you will see changes and they will be worthwhile.

I have a few other thoughts about things to try, but I’ll stop and see if this is the type of input you were looking for.

40

You mean, the one where he lamented that he didn’t know about the disorder and how it might have helped him get a diagnosis earlier so that his kid could have received help earlier?

You came in, saying you couldn’t understand why such would be helpful (which should be obvious: earlier diagnosis means earlier treatment means better treatment outcomes for all mental disorders). Then you switched the topic to talk about how most of the diagnoses of ODD are in fact not real, and that the parents are just bad people.

First off, why bring that up, other than to insinuate something about the OP? What relevance does it have to the topic of people searching for help from people whose kids legitimately do have the disorder?

Second, you’re setting yourself up as an adversary. Think about it from the point of view of parents of children (or the children themselves) with a legitimate diagnosis. Do you realize how shitty it is that some people think we have to PROVE our diagnosis is legitimate? Do you realize how hard my parents had to fight to get me my 504 plan? (It involved lawyers). Do you realize how many times my parents were told that they must not have actually tried everything, blaming them for my behavior?

You start talking about how the parents are just bad parents who didn’t actually try, and claiming that’s the norm? That’s gonna upset a lot of us. That attitude is why we have to fight so hard to get us (or our children) the care they need.

You could have come in and offered the sympathy the OP was asking for, or provided help by mentioning what you knew from the kids who did have ODD. But instead you decided to focus on all the “fakers” out there, making this in yet another thread where those of us with diagnoses have to fight the stigma.

Hilarity’s “umbrage” makes perfect sense. If you’d come in and claimed that most OCD diagnoses weren’t real and that the parents were just bad parents, I would take offense, too. Especially in a thread where the OP is asking for HELP with their child.