Oregon man who killed his family -- He's a "Promise Keeper"

The BBQ Pit
81

I didn’t know these idiots were still around. PK creeps me out, I have to say. I think all that crap about men “taking” their role as a leader and forcing their wives to “submit” is extremely disturbing and is not defensible in the least. Any man who would buy into a ground rule like that needs to be watched closely. My wife would laugh in my face if I tried that little “roles” speech on her.

This is different then most other religious groups in that it is founded on a proposition that one group of people has been granted some sort of moral “authority” over another group. This is repulsive to me. I really would like to know the answer to the question about what the man is supposed to do if his wife tells him to cram his “leadership” up his ass. Seriously, what does the literature say to do if a wife flatly refuses to submit to her husband’s “authority?”

As to the OP, I think it’s likely that an organization like PK would be attractive to controlling, abusive males because it seems to give a religious stamp of approval to their behaviour and is useful in manipulating and intimidating their spouses. Did PK actually contribute to this guy being a murderer? Probably not, it was probably just a symptom of his innate assholery.

82

I have to say that I’m actually encouraged by this thread. I guess I assumed too much about what the general attitude would be.

It really is a shame that there appear to be some weird quotes from Bill. I don’t know much about the PKs really, but overall I get a decent impression of them.

But…

I remember a good quote from a guy at a church I was attending to the effect that a lot of men decide they need to lead by putting others down instead of doing something worth following. I wonder if there isn’t a bit of that happening on a subconcious level with some of these people.

BTW - I see your point, Larry Mudd. I hope that’s what was intended, too.

83

Ummm, no. Our community has been torn apart by so-called FOtF zealots for years. I don’t recall you saying you live here so you have little basis, unless I am wrong, we can take it up in email.

Their hypocracy, their complete disregard for those that are gay or lesbian has made me a strong critic.

I am not a lesbian but perchance I were; I would be shunned in this particular community in such a way I would desire or need to move. They have created such a horrible block of people (well many blocks) that will outright create a hostile environment for those that are gay and lesbian.

It started to reach our city government until a thinking human took the reigns as the city manager even though this man is not my ideal of a city leader…he saw the need to be nuetral.

He met with extreme opposition but gave gay couples the chance to have medical and life benefits for those employees within the city government.

This was a boon to this town where the people voted to actually deny rights to those whose sexual partners were of the same sex in Amendment 2 back in the early 90s.

Look. PK is not a bad organization in my experiences with, especially my brother. They are not about supressing a woman but bringing leadership and honesty to their families. I don’t, in all reality, see this as such a bad thing leadership in the form of a man or a woman is needed.

If their message, as protrayed (sp) by my brother were to tell me that it was some “quasi-militaristic fundamentalist organization” I think I would have a grasp of it. I am not religious, I don’t desire religion in my life, I am a Libertarian and capible (again spelling) of understanding what goes on in my family life.

My brothers and my dad are far from this.

Yes, this is through experience so pardon me for being on the opposite side of which the OP is about. Surprise, surprise. There are other sides to the story than which has been presented here.

Do I agree with my brothers and my father? Usually NO. But I do agree with the fact that PK has given them some more sense of what their family means to them in a very intimate way, stop with the lame thinking okay? If this is wrong then what the fuck is real issue here? I have experienced personally what this organization has done for my sis-in-laws, my step-mom and the children involved. I am not religious but again, I have seen the changes and if it’s for the better then what’s the problem?

They opened up to their kids and wives. They don’t seem to me to be pushing the idea of the women staying home and making babies and that’s their only realistic ideal on Earth. They seem to live better connected lives to their family. What in this is so wrong? Heck, the all encourage me in my single life to pursue what it is I really want. 34 years old and I am still single, yet they still love and care for me, encouraging me when I need it.

And frankly, WTF does my issue with FOtF require me to agree with them while I agree with PK?

They are two completely different organizations. FOtF is a racist, bigoted, scared of alternative families, organization. I live here, in Colorado Springs, both of which started here in Colorado. I think I have a good basis for understanding this scenario.

Are there issues with the ideals of PK and the intentions of their org? Sure, I agree but given the knowledge I have on a personal level I don’t think that PK is an organization that goes out and gives a high five to a man killing his family.

On another note, niether does FOtF but they are an entirely different organization to which I loathe because of their influence here locally. They have only made minor issues very difficult here and that’s what I disagree with. Our local government has had to stuggle with them and the community and they make life very difficult for the local community. PK, from my experience, has only encouraged men to be a part of their families. They have made men understand “God’s” need for them to be strong and encourage their wives and children to be good as they are striving to be.

There is nothing wrong with that.

84

I understand where you are coming from, not a problem here.

BUT, I have to stress what I have felt on my own level and maybe that’s not enough for others to take away and make sense of it.

Maybe my brothers and my father are strong enough to be skeptical?

But I do know what they all have done in their lives to make their families a more loving and wonderful environment.

I don’t like FOtF, we all know that, but PK hasn’t been a bad thing in my life, in fact the opposite.

With that said and I repeat myself. PK has given my brothers and my father tools to be better family men. Are they perfect? Fuck no but they seem to listen with a closer ear and a tender heart.

But what does this have to do with the OP?

The OP basically blamed three deaths on PK and I still have yet to see that it the cause of the deaths.

Another rant that was lost in debate over other people’s experiences.

The OP essentially said, with not so many words that it was because of a “quasi-militaristic fundamentalist organization” this happened. Take the heat off me and look to that statement.

That’s like saying all Arab-Americans are terrorists.

Yes, my words could have taken that turn but I didn’t until now…so let’s focus on the original statement that started this.

A man killed his family and the OP wanted to blame an organization called Promise Keepers. A statement I disagree with. We are losing sight of the OP here folks.

85

Apparently I can’t type. I have been doomed for sleep for a while so mull over what you can undrstand.

It’s not about PK or about FOtF, it’s about perceived views of the uneducated in this realm in the OP.

A man killed his family, he (the OP) is left to ponder, he makes a snap decision on what happened, his affiliation with a “quasi-militaristic fundamentalist organization” to which I only know that he has no ties to other than an outside view. I happen to have somewhat of an inside view.

I can make all kinds of generalizations about people, but I don’t.

A clerk has a bad day, she chews gum, has big hair and wears shit loads of makeup…this does not make her “trailer trash” it only makes her a human going through life in the best way she knows.

It’s sickening. Not every Harley rider is a biker that associates with the Hells Angles.

< harumph >

And I can’t type for shit right now.

86

techchick, I can’t type for beans right now either, as it’s late and I’ve had a coupla few scotch & sodas. I’ve been feeling a little remiss for keeping out of this thread today, although I’ve been thinking quite a bit about it.

When I posted the OP, I considered Promise Keepers to be in the same category as Christian Identity-- a group with a reprehensible political agenda, which uses a thin veneer of religious rhetoric as a sort of shield, or perhaps as a blind.

Of necessity, I’ve reevaluated that position, not just on your anecdotal accounts of your personal experience, but also on what I’ve read online in the last couple of days. Heretofore, everything that I’ve heard about the group has come from its critics.

Under scrutiny, its obvious to me that PK is a multidimensional organization, and it certainly appears that their influence, on balance, may be more good than bad.

I’m still uncomfortable with the fundraising and lobbying aspects of it, but it’s clearly not equivalent with Christian Identity, of which nothing positive can be said-- examination of their published material only provides more evidence for condemnation. Looking into what PK has made available though, I have to admit that it’s hard to disagree with the majority of it. Of course, the idea that the male partner in a relationship has a natural leadership role is an idea that remains offensive to me, as is the the idea that homosexuality is a sin. But there are babies and there is bathwater.

I remain suspicious of any sort of spiritual guidance that has an admission fee-- this seems contrary to Christian philosophy to me. In a fundamental way, it seems to me that the most valuable christian values are available for free just by picking up a copy of the New Testament.

Then again, it’s possible that Promise Keepers, through their populist approach & emphasis on sports metaphors, make some core values easily comprehensible to people who may not be inclined to do that.

I’m probably not expressing myself properly here-- I’m grateful to have the opportunity to blame it on the scotch.

Condensed version: I appreciate your contrition for the vehemance of some of your earlier posts, but don’t consider that you have anything to apologize for.

This has been very educational for me, and I’m grateful for that.

I’ve probably got more that I ought to say, but it’s about time for the nightly maintenence thing, so I’ll just post this while I can.

87

No, my example demonstrates that some posters are willing to make unjustified generalizations about PK that would sound un-PC if made about Islam, gays, etc.

I am not asserting anything like “all organizations are morally equal”. I am requesting that consistent standards be used in determining which organizations are morally acceptable, and which are not.

Jeffrey Dahmer was gay, and a serial murderer. It would be silly to assume that membership in a gay rights organization consisted mostly of mass murderers. And someone posting to that effect would be piled on at once.

Regards,
Shodan

PS - Happy New Year!

88

Which would settle this if the question were whether the FOF web site is meaner to the Gay and Lesbian Alliance web site than the Promise keeper’s web site is. Or if Owen’s BLOG attacked that of his wife and three children. (Now, that is a disturbing picture. There would be HTML code and URLs all over wall. The pain. Oh the humanity!)

But, here in the real world, Promise Keepers and Focus on the Family are very closely purposed.

I will offer here a brief lesson in how such para-church organizations work. I have been about church work, very involved, for 30+ years. First, I can say that almost no Christian organization gets anywhere unless it works within a church setting. People don’t start Christian anti-abortion work, anti-gambling works, or social action works, in bars, social clubs or malls. They start them at their church. They need a place to meet, copiers, and money.

So, how do such organizations work in churches? Who joins them? Are those involved with FOF different from those involved in PK?

The way these organizations get started is that someone in the church is interested.

1.If it is the pastor, he make announcements, pushes people into forming committees, and giving money. 2,Another way this group gets going is if a layman in the church is very interested in some special issue. If the pastor approves, that person forms a committee and off the thing goes.
3.The denomination can also have a strong influence. If the pastor gets behind the denominational stand, the committe is formed and the work goes on.
4.If the PKers or FOFers emphasize some pet issue that the Pastor is fond of, he will support the whole thing somewhat as well.

Now, who is the common person in all these scenarios? RIGHT, the pastor. Now, 9 out of 10 pastors who will support FOF will also support PK. They are that similar. If you are all bunched up about FOF, then you may as well get all bunched up about PK.

Finally, it is no more gay bashing to be open minded about the possibility that homosexual inclinations are a moral issue open to the possibility of change, than it is to drunk bashing to offer the opinion that alcohol abusers can become sober or obese people can become thin.One of the most disturbing things about these social issues of gambling, fidelity, homosexuality, and such is that people think that everyone else has to be open minded, but they can be closed minded. There is no scientific, objective way to settle moral issues.People on both sides need to accept that it may not be all black and white.

89

Well, I agree with the first part of your post, Boxer. Above, I even presented evidence that FOF and PK are directly linked. Direct connections, which techchick68 feels are less relevant than what she feels about the organization. Whatever, it’s her choice; I just put the information out there to make her aware that the organization she admires is in bed with the one she despises, so that maybe she’ll be cautious about what PK is teaching her relatives.

But the paragraph quoted above is an entirely different issue than the one being discussed in this thread. I’d like to ask for a clarification and expansion of the idea presented therein, but I think that in the context of this thread it would be a complete hijack. If you’d care to start another thread explaining your perspective further, I’d be interested. But for the moment, I’d like to go on record as saying that I disagree.

90

Diogynes,

I think anyone who thinks that assuming leadership involves “forcing” anyone to “submit” has a heck of a lot to learn about leadership.

91

But neither PK nor FOF have any belief in killing one’s family.

Nor has any evidence brought here supported any connection between any of their real beliefs and violence against families at all.