From the AP wire:
[QUOTE]
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - A gay Mormon man killed himself at a Mormon church after leaving a suicide note that said he hoped his death ``might be the catalyst for some good.’’
(note: I snipped most of a copyrighted article. -Lynn)
[Note: This message has been edited by Lynn Bodoni]
Yet another shining example of what happens when morons refuse to think for themselves and believe whatever the guy in the house with the stained glass windows tells them.
I am the user formerly known as puffington.
OK, a few brief statements to clarify my take on this.
A religion can have any damn opinion it wants on homosexuality, especially if it is a religion which people choose free of choice and have the option to get out of (which is the case with the Mormon Church, if I’m not mistaken - correct me if I’m wrong, of course).
Therefore, the guy who comitted suicide could just as easily have left the church and found another religion that DOES approve of homosexuality. God knows (errrr… he he…) how many there are out there. If a religion disagrees with such an integral part of your personality (as the guy made apparent in his suicide note, he realised that he could NOT become straight through prayer), why don’t you just leave it all behind?
Becoming a martyr for a good cause might be commendable in some cases, but did this guy REALLY think one suicide (or 2000, for that matter) is going to change the position of the Powers that Be? There’s numerous religions that have proven throughout history that this kind of approach is totally without effect. Why would the Mormon Church be any different?
The term “Drama Queen” somehow springs to mind.
(Note: I do not mean to offend Mormon, Gay or Gay Mormon people with this. It’s just my opinion, which is, admittedly, based on little knowledge of the Mormon Church. So, again, please correct me if there are any flaws in the logic above.)
Coldfire
Voted Poster Most Likely To Post Drunk
"You know how complex women are"
Otto, I think that this is a very sad story and I am sorry to hear it. My sympathies go out to the members of this man’s family and his friends. As a Mormon who has trouble with same-sex attraction, I have sometimes wished that things could be different, especially in the past.
I really don’t have a sermon to preach here. Those are just some of my thoughts on the matter. It’s tragic and sad. 
Otto,
This is indeed a tragedy.
But I cannot join you in condemning the Mormon’s – or, indeed, any other church’s – absolute right to hold any position they please on the issue of what constitutes a marriage.
Moreover, any organization has, in this country, every right to legally influence the legislature to pass laws it feels are in its favor. If I, as a private citizen, were unalterably opposed to gay marriage, are you suggesting I not have the legal right to contact my state senators, my delegates, and urge them to vote in accord with my beliefs?
If a devout Roman Catholic committed suicide because the Church would not grant him an annullment an permit him to marry the love of his life, should we call upon that institution to reverse its stance on allowing divorce? If an Orthodox Jew committed suicide, and left a note screaming at the injustice of a God that would not permit him to eat a bacon cheeseburger, must we then ask Jews to reverse the laws of kasruth?
A religion has every right to practice as it sees fit. It is a terrible tragedy that someone felt driven to suicide as a result of his church’s tenets, but it’s not a call to change those tenets.
Sorry. I think this is a terrible event. But it’s not solved by requiring religions to change to a viewpoint that would succor those afflicted with different viewpoints.
in addition to your logic coldfire:
so its not just religion based…or are they supposed to find new family and friends as well?
religion is a complicated phenomenon…it can be comforting at some times and trying at other times.
i ask: why cant people belive in themselves? why do they have to pray for support from their own creation?
bj0rn - an individual
I feel sorry for this man. He must have been in a lot uf pain, but this is truly tragic for his family. It’s so sad he chose the ultimate manipulation to hurt his poor family. Something that no one can never undo or take back or make better.
umm “of”.
CF, you said:
At the risk of siding with Bj0rn ( ;)), “just as easily” doesn’t apply to dogma. Many religions, and the CofJCofLDS is very much one, fully steep their members in the Church from Day 0. Most of the people I know who were raised LDS (admittedly, mostly in Salt Lake) know very little outside of the church. Their families are LDS, their friends are LDS. They play Ward basketball twice a week, spend Sundays in meeting, attend movies and potlucks. The spend Monday nights at home with their families, further cememting the union of Church and family. They spend one or two years away from home, often in a foreign country, with no support network beyond the church.
Especially in high-density LDS communities, such as parts of Utah, the Bay area, Idaho, the Church is everything–social life, educational life, spiritual life.
It isn’t easy to “just leave it all behind.” And unfortunately, many people feel that suicide is the only way out. I think calling an obviously desperate and tortured man who beleived suicide was the only solution to his perceived problems a “drama queen” is way out of line.
You and Rick are both absolutely correct that churches can preach any thing they want. A suicide isn’t going to change that, obviously. But, what can be done is this–we, as a society or concerned individuals, can provide support for the “victims” of religious dogma. If Stuart had known that a gay LDS support group met down the street from him, for example, he might have realized he had other options.
It’s not a matter of changing Dogma, so much as increasing awareness. Why was this guy so whacko he thought killing himself was the only way out? Maybe someone dropped the ball? It’s possible that people both within the Church and without may start questioning tactics or their own dogma. And eventually, that effects change. It’s happened before.
-andros-
I’m not trying to be a dick, Coldfire. I still think you’re the bee’s knees, but I don’t think I emphasized this enough:
I’m remembering the OpalCat brouhaha, I suppose.
-andros-
I have to wonder, if the guy had killed himself because of his strict fundamentalist baptist upbringing being incompatible with his sexual orientation, would there have been a post here about it?
Don’t get me wrong, I feel for the guy, but I find Mormon-bashing just as reprehensible as gay-bashing.
Very likely, Dex (IMO). Or if he’d had a strict Catholic upbringing. But your point is well made–it’s almost a knee-jerk reaction sometimes to beat up on the LDS. Maybe a residual feelign that it’s a “cult,” even from the people who purport to be opposed to any religion?
-andros-
The Mormons have every right to decide for themselves what constitutes “marriage.” They also have the right to attempt to influence civil law, just like anyone else does. I would never argue otherwise. My disgust with them comes from their apparant willingness to abandon gay Mormons to death while they pour hundreds of thousands of dollars into these anti-marriage efforts.
Yes. Just as these institutions have the right to conduct themselves as they see fit, we have the right to question their beliefs, especially when those beliefs cause misery.
Yes, had I received a similar message regarding another religious denomination, I would have posted it. I don’t think it’s “bashing” to point out that a doctrine which leads to suicide is one that deserves to be reconsidered.
Um… who said anything about that? Calling someone an asshole is not the same as saying they don’t have the right to BE an asshole.
–
“Disco balls create an enchanting, dazzling effect of light shafts, adding movement and glamour to any occasion”
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com
Otto: You speak from ignorance. The doctrine in question is not as you have described it. The LDS leadership have consistently preached fellowshipping of those who have homosexual tendencies and they have also consistently held homosexual activity to be sinful. The leadership and the members of the church base that claim on their interpretation of their scriptures. You may disagree with that interpretation; you may even completely disbelieve those scriptures as even being of any worth. The fact remains that the LDS leadership do have a valid claim to interpret their scriptures the way they do.
Again, the LDS leadership teach against all types of sexual immorality. like it or not, they see a number of things as being in that category. One of those is homosexual relations; another is masturbation; and yet another is sexual relations outside of marriage. Given the current state of things, it’s rather obvious that homosexual relations are outside of marriage.
I say again: the LDS leadership also condemn premarital sex. Aren’t you going to lambast them for that too?
What I wonder is why you are so quick to condemn them for having an agenda when you certainly have an obvious agenda yourself and damn the facts when they interfere with yours.
BTW: I noticed you didn’t mention what their reaction to his incident was.
Anyway, although the LDS are often branded a cult, they by no means force anyone to remain a member of that church.
What Otto is doing here is exploiting the man’s death in yet another effort to place homosexuals in a ‘victim status’
As a gay ex-mormon, I have a different take on things than Monty does. First, he doesn’t address the mind-cracking stress a gay man can feel when every member of his family is constantly letting him know that he’s an awful sinner, and if he wants to stay in their good graces, he’ll stop being gay. It doesn’t work that way, I’m afraid. Yes, I know current church dogma sounds a hell of a lot like “love the sinner, hate the sin”… but no matter how hard you try to whitewash it, you’re still asking gays to live in denial of who they really are. All evidence shows that gays don’t “choose” to be gay. It just is. I sure as hell wouldn’t have chosen to be gay, if I had had a choice in the matter, but I’m gay. That’s just the way it is. Mormon theology, which demands marrying a woman for ‘time and eternity’ in the Temple for admittance to the highest level of heaven, treats me like a second-class citizen. Even assuming I was willing to deny myself and go along with their strictures regarding my sexuality, I’d still have to live a lie if I was convinced that the Mormons had a lock on the truth and wanted to graduate to God status in the Celestial Kingdom.
This is really no different from the way the Mormon church treated blacks until not too long ago – when it became politically expedient to proclaim a “revelation” that blacks weren’t denied priesthood. It’s ironic that, from the Mormon’s roots as a persecuted minority, that they now have turned and persecute others.
And Boomer, Otto’s done no exploitation of any kind. Try pulling your bigoted little head out of your ass before you post.
What Otto and CowboyGreg have failed to tell us is the following:
(Taken from San Francisco Examiner’s March 3, 2000 National Edition, page A-14, column 3, beginning at the 4th paragraph)
Otto quoted the first paragraph but didn’t relate [cue Paul Harvey voice]“the rest of the story.”
Suicide is a quite complex thing and to pin it on one thing or to imply or even state flatout that one thing caused it is just asinine.
Anyway, Otto; how about honouring the family’s wishes instead of just your own for a change.
Cowboy Greg:
There you go again! Attempting to gain ‘victim’ status by equating your lifestyle with blacks. You’ve been well indoctrinated, but the argument is wearing thin.
Seeing as how it is likely that his family was Mormon and was part of what drove him to suicide, how about we NOT honor thier wishes.
I’d really love to see a religion that claims to follow Christ actually go all out and act with LOVE and ACCEPTANCE and leave it for GOD to do the judging. Not that it will ever happen, but it would be nice.
–
From an actual catalog" “Disco balls create an enchanting, dazzling effect of light shafts, adding movement and glamour to any occasion”
the Abrams’ bris was certainly memorable
O p a l C a t
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