The Mormons claim a victim

The BBQ Pit
21

It seems as though no one has brought this up, so I will.
IMHO, all organized religion is a bunch of bunk. I can understand the need of the masses for something to believe in, but when are we going to abandon tired mythology and hokie religions and realize that it is up to the individual to realize a relationship with God. Or Allah or Sheba or Buddha or Amaterasu or Vishnu or whoever.
I’m not mormon. I’m not gay.
I’m not a one to say anyone is wrong, I only think that organized religion is full of crap. Especially anyone that hates anyone and says it’s because God says to.
The God I believe in is incapable of hate. I don’t think there is any room for hate in the face of infinite love and compassion.

I don’t believe in Hell. I don’t bellive in a vengeful God that will punish me for being what he created me as (grammar?).
People are people, and they can be Mastersons no matter what their sexual orientation, relogion, skin-color, land of origin, sex, creed, ethnicity, et cetera.
I have know great people from all walks of life, and I know complete Mastersons from all walks of life.
All I can say is, any organization that is bigoted has to be wrong in that respect.
I can’t say I hate bigots, as that would be kind of hippocritical, but I can say that bigotry of any kind has no place in society.

The bitch of it is, most people don’t even know why they’re bigots. They are because their parents were, or their pastor is, or their friends are, or something.
Bunch of easily led automotons. Bunch of sheep. If people could think for themselves, then maybe they wouldn’t eat a bullet because their church and family made them feel bad.
And maybe the church and family wouldn’t feel the need to ostracize someone while in the same breath trying to say that Jesus loves me and you and everyone.
Which one is it? He loves all his children or just the ones who are the robots you see in church every Sunday? Or Saturday, for that matter.

I know I probably said some things that are wrong, and that I may have pissed some folks off. I am sorry, and please, be gentle when you pick this apart, if you must.
I just got to rambling a little bit, because I can’t this sort of thing.
Thank you for your consideration.

how did it start? well i don’t know i just feel the craving. i see the flesh and it smells fresh and it’s just there for the taking…
VvvV
“Winners never quit and quitters never win, but those who never win and never quit are idiots.”

22

Sounds pretty accurate to me, Lex.

I am the user formerly known as puffington.

23

Greg says: << It’s ironic that, from the Mormon’s roots as a persecuted minority,
that they now have turned and persecute others. >>

Yeah, it’s an irony, but no more so than, say, Christianity. You recollect they began as a persecutied minority, but have made up for in the intervening centuries, aplenty (including their persecutions of other groups that outsiders would all lump as Christians, like the Protestants persecution of Catholics and the Catholics persectuion of Protestants and… well, we won’t even mention the Lutherans, three religions with a common pension plan.)

Interesting, as Opal mentions, that the religions that hail Jesus of Nazareth as their ideal (or their god) and totally disregard everything he said. Jesus, you’ll recall, hung out with the lepers and the despised of society, and said something about loving them all. He also said something about whoever was without sin should cast the first stone, but he didn’t mention casting the first aspersion.

24

I quoted the full text of the AP story. It was removed by the moderator.

I figure the guy who killed himself has the best idea of why he did it, and Stuart stated pretty clearly it was because of the pain his church caused him over his sexual orientation.

How about doing with this suicide what Stuart wanted done with it instead of kowtowing to the wishes of some of the people who helped drive him to his death?

25

Dex: You and Opal missed where I posted “the leadership of the LDS have consistently preached fellowshipping.” Perhaps it’s because you don’t know the LDS meaning of that term. They see it as both following JC’s dictates and assisting one of their own with following same.

Opal: Of Otto, I expect such but I can’t seriously believe you would advocate such a cruel thing as manipulating and wounding the dead man’s family in the time of their grief. You are now, IMHO, the biggest asshole on this board.

26

When I hear of a Mormon killing himself because his church condemns pre-marital sex, I’ll lambaste the church for that too.

The facts of my condemnation of the Mormons, which you have damned because it interferes with your agenda, are that they abandon countless people to misery and this person to suicide, while pouring hundreds of thousands of dollars into efforts to institutionalize that misery. The very next time something I espouse leads someone to shoot himself in the head on my doorstep, you feel free to condemn me for it.

27

CKDexrHaven said:

My, my, we’re quick to generalize, aren’t we? :frowning:

28

[[I have to wonder, if the guy had killed himself because of his strict fundamentalist baptist upbringing being incompatible with his sexual orientation, would there have been a post here about it?]]

I’m sure there would have. My question is whether any of the rest of you might be “quick to condemn” a religious doctrine that promotes racism? Religious groups have the “right” to believe what they want, and we all have the right to be offended by them, especially when they promote bigotry or persecution.

29

And exactly what is my agenda, Otto?

30

But since the Mormon Church really believes that homosexual activity will separate a person from God, wouldn’t they be hypocritical to endorse or support that behaviour just to keep everyone happy or for political correctness? If I grew up Mormon, then converted to Moslem (because I truly felt that was the right thing for me), should I expect the entire Church to change their doctrine to accomodate me so I could stay Mormon also to be with my family and friends?

Obviously, he had a lot of problems. To blame the LDS for his suicide simply shifts responsibility of his actions to a convenient target. Suicide wasn’t his only possible choice. It was just the one that could cause the most damage that he wouldn’t have to answer for afterward.

I had a friend who killed himself and I remember the distorted way of thinking he had, and how easily he blamed everyone else for his troubles. He was gay, living in San Francisco, among tons of friends and supporters, far away from his family in England, so why did he kill himself?

Because he was depressed, he wasn’t thinking clearly, and he wanted to.

All of his friends felt so angry that he didn’t reach out to us at all. He just did it. Then, he left a note with his “final requests” (funeral arrangements, etc). It felt like, “Fuck you all, and oh, please give me a big burial at sea”. We were so angry and very sad.

So I’m sorry if I don’t sound real sympathetic, but this guy’s death seems like, “Fuck you all, and oh, please blame yourselves too.”

If his thinking was distorted enough to make him kill himself, why “honor” those distorted thoughts by placing blame? He was messed up. It’s very sad. But he was responsible for his own death.

31

Okatym, you done good!

Several points need to be made here:

  1. From what I’m told by the LDS members on this board, the Mormon church is opposed to homosexual practice, and recognizes the problem faced by Mormons with homosexual orientation. At least officially, they are welcomed and counseled to deal with their special temptation to sin (from the Mormon viewpoint).

  2. There seems to be fairly good anecdotal evidence that many individual Mormons condemn even the orientation. Plainly from what’s been reported, the family of the suicide were among these.

  3. IMHO, the church, while maintaining its stance on what it considers moral, could probably do a much better job of ministering to its gay members, and “enlightening” the homophobic among its flock so they won’t condemn the gay members.

  4. This situation is not peculiar to the Mormons. For some reason, they make a damn good target for anybody with a bitch against Christianity. I suspect strongly it is because, with the additional scriptures and odd theological twists, they are seen as a “fringe” church. But this same attitude is pretty prevalent in almost every conservative denomination, not to mention the independent can-barely-rub-two-pews together churches. And a lot of them are even more anti-gay than are the Mormons, who at least are trying to carry out a love-the-sinner/hate-the-sin attitude in practice.

Maybe the Mormons need to do some cleanup in their own house. But so do a lot of other Christian denominations.

And, might I note, so do a lot of non-religious liberals who are quick to condemn without getting all the facts. (Myself included, all too often, though I’m not non-religious.)

I’ve asked Monty to review the threads that deal with Mormonism, including the Great Debate ones where homosexuality and Mormonism’s stance vis-a-vis it has been discussed, so that maybe we can get some facts in place. If there’s something to find fault with, all well and good. But let’s get the facts first, shall we?

32

I just want to mention here that I don’t represent the entire Mormon church in my opinions on homosexuality. Please don’t take my statements to be official LDS policy or even the “prevalent” attitude among Mormons. I’m inactive in the LDS church and don’t participate in Mormon society or social gatherings, so you can hardly say that my statements about Mormonism’s attitude towards gays carry any real weight.

The poster formerly known as “Snark.” (Don’t ask.)

33

Does anyone else seem to be missing posts in this thread?

Poly

I can’t think of any law which would “protect and enhance th status of gay people” more thoroughly and effectively than SSM. I still see his position as contradictory.

Flinx

Can you explain to me how my being married to a man in Wisconsin affects in any way you or Gordon Hinckley or anyone else’s family? Any time I see this assertion, that SSM would damage “the family” (as if there’s only one family), I ask “how?” The person who makes the assertion never manages to list off specific concrete consequences to “the family.” As for God’s wrath, look to the countries where some form of SSM is recognized. Have any of them been blasted from the earth? Has a single mixed-sex marriage ended as a result?

If Gordon Hinckley died today, and tomorrow’s new “prophet” said “same-sex marriages should be legal throughout the world,” would you believe him?

I have posted, in the course of my board work at the ACLU, news stories that aren’t necessarily complimentary to gay people. Would I post such a story here? Probably not, but I would have posted it at the ACLU Online boards.

Boomer

“The Bible is without reservation in its condemnation of homosexuality…God’s penalty is death.” Rousas John Rushdooney, “The Institutes of Biblical Law,” p 735.

I’ve already debunked your “special rights” nonsense in that thread. Isn’t any effort to secure civil rights protection “self-serving”?

I was fired from a job for being gay. What “gay behaviour” do you think I was engaging in at the office? How many gay people have to be fired or lose their homes or beaten or killed before we qualify as “oppressed”?

The disabled were not covered under that piece of legislation yet you seem to believe they are a “truly oppressed” minority. Not too inconsistent…

I don’t have a clue what you mean by "desensitization techniques, but as far as "claiming victim status goes…

Victim: one that is acted on and usu. adversely affected by a force or agent: as

(2) : one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment.

I would say that I qualify, having been “subjected to oppression, hardship [and] mistreatment” because of my sexual orientation. Why is it so important to you to deny that gay people have indeed been victimized?

If you can demonstrate that your eye color causes you to be subject to unlawful discrimination, then I would absolutely encourage you to take advantage of your legal remedies. Do I advocate “special” laws? No, because I don’t find laws mandating equal treatment to be “special.”

34

Otto said:

In which part of the country do you live? I can tell you that this would not happen here in California-without some severe shit hitting the fan. And, again, IMHO, it should be illegal to discriminate solely on the basis of homosexuality. I can’t help but wonder, though-were there other factors involved? You weren’t ‘acting up’ were you? Did the same person who hired you also fire you? If so, what changed in the interim? Did you have a performance review during the course of your employment?
Otto: (quoting Rushdooney):

"The Bible is without reservation in its condemnation of homosexuality…God’s penalty
is death." Rousas John Rushdooney, “The Institutes of Biblical Law,” p 735.

I suspect Rushdooney is talking about spiritual death, not physical death. I don’t see an advocacy for ‘murderous rampages’ here. Again, it seems you’re overreacting, Otto. In any even, you haven’t heard me base any of my arguments on scripture, have you?
It’s irrelevent.
Otto:

I don’t deny that all sorts of prejudices exist. I find it very difficult, however, to line up with your victimization hysteria. Maybe I’m too insulated from some of the more backwards parts of the country, and haven’t seen real oppression. I live in a modern, high tech urban center of business and industry-yet very multicultural. We have every race, ethnicity, religion and you name it here. Yet everyone seems to get along without much difficulty (although language is sometimes problematic). But there are very few, if any ‘hate crimes’ or discriminatory practices-that I’m aware of.

It is nigh impossible for me, coming from this framework, to make the connection between ‘homosexual victimization’ and the true discrimination against other minorities that I know still happens in some parts of this country.

35

I agree that the church leadership needs to minister better to its gay members. The leadership of the church has been trying to do that; yet, they still encounter opposition from certain areas. There is still a “not my child!” mentality among many folks. You might want to note that this also applies when a very devout parent’s child says he doesn’t intend to serve a mission. I’ve actually heard the expression, “Not my child!” in that very instance.

The leadership apparently recognizes its need to improve the level and effectiveness of their ministry to as evidenced by their continued entreaty for divine guidance.

The leadership has also been conducting a long drive to educate the members of the church not to equate the Roman Catholic Church with Satan’s church. They’re doing their best to get the word out. Luckily, Chicktracts aren’t an LDS publication ;). Sadly, though, many of the “rank and file” still hold to things they’ve either misheard or misunderstood, or just plain old wished to be true.

I’d say that everybody needs to “clean up their own house.” Else why would Jesus have mentioned the story about the mote in one’s eye? To me, that story is a constant reminder to all of us.

I did check the thread entitled “Homosexuality a crime?” or some such title; 'twas the thread started by Orion***[ad nauseum]Orion (also dubbed “starboy”). Please, never ask me to check anything written by that fool again. I ran out of tylenol last night and don’t feel like going shopping at the moment–the resulting headache is not conducive to that.

Besides ignoring Otto’s asinine and inflammatory comments about the Church President’s GPA, I did address a couple of things, even a couple of things which you asked me to, Polycarp.

36

My performance evals were routinely high before the fundamentalist Christian manager was hired. After the fundamentalist Christian manager was hired, my evaluations mysteriously plummeted. The day-to-day stuff is too complex to go into on a message board.

No, he is talking about physical death. He is talking about taking up stones and hitting homosexuals with them until the homosexuals are dead.

That’s very cute. You make a faulty assumption about Rushdooney’s quote, and based on that you tell me I’m overreacting. In any even, you haven’t heard me base

any of my arguments on scripture, have you?

It’s irrelevent.

Mighty white of you.

Please offer up an example of my supposed “hysteria.”

Are you saying that the victimization (a word that I did not introduce into the discourse, BTW) of gay people is not “true discrimination”? What exactly distinguishes anti-gay discrimination from “true discrimination”? Was I any less out of work? Are those who lose their homes any less homeless? Have the gay parents whose children are taken away from them by courts less without custody? Are Matthew Shepard and Billy Jack Gaither any less dead?

37

Thanks, Monty! :slight_smile: I’m glad to hear the CoJCoLDS is seriously trying to improve the lot of its gay members. And I don’t hold the church at fault for its inhumane members’ inhumanity if it has been doing its best to combat it.

Otto is correct on Rushdoony the Loony, from what I’ve read. Unfortunately he evidently has a fair amount of influence on the more widely respected members of the religious right. Rushdoony is not speaking metaphorically; he is in serious belief that Christians should take over the country and “run it as God intended” and that gays and a few other categories should receive the punishments prescribed in Leviticus.

Note to all Christians: it’s a good thing he was not around in BC 5; there was an unmarried (though engaged) girl who got pregnant and therefore should have been stoned to death, according to his standards. Young lady named Mary. Of course, all right-minded people would condemn her! :rolleyes:

38

Nobody brought up masturbation. Let me tell you MONTY, the next time I watch Bay-Watch and get all boned up (on one of the girls of course). I will relieve myself without guilt. You think sex with women make you do it less? Not for me. I guess Mormons would just keep a hard-on and stay in pain till their balls turn blue or they shoot themselves.

39

To cooldude:
So what you’re saying is that you masturbate and you’re not a Mormon. Have at it :)!
Who cares? Since you’re not a Mormon, why concern yourself with their beliefs? I doubt you’ll be losing any status with the Mormon Church now that they know about you. Actually, I don’t think they really care, but I’m not quite sure.

To anyone:

If you don’t agree with the fundamental beliefs of ANY church or organization, don’t participate. They probably don’t want “your kind” coming around to attack their beliefs any more than you want “their kind” coming around to impose themselves on you.

Remember, we have a fundamental right in the USA to practice any religion we want (or not). If you don’t like it, don’t become it. But just because we don’t agree with their religious beliefs, why belittle or demean people who try to elevate their behaviours based on their religion? Even more, why try to change their beliefs to suit ourselves? Start your own religion, or find one that fits you better. But to expect the whole Church to change their core beliefs to accomodate us is narcissistic, self-righteous, (sp?) and definitely NOT a “right” anyone has.

-Katy

40

From Monty: “Anyway, Otto; how about honouring the family’s wishes instead of just your own for a change.”

Just had to note how funny this is, coming from the mormon who so passionately defends his religion’s practice of baptizing the dead regardless of the surviving family’s desires or the dead person’s chosen religion.