yosemitebabe, whether or not the family’s permission is needed for organ donation depends on your state. Indiana passed a law recently that makes the donor’s wishes to be a donor, as indicated on his or her driver’s license or a donor card, binding - the family doesn’t have the authority to override those wishes. United Network for Organ Sharing website has a lot of good information about organ donation, and links to state organ procurement organizations.
WinkieHubby is waiting for a kidney transplant, so I’ve been reading up.
If they sue, and dammit most likely…when they sue, I’m gonna get pissed.
Don’t get me wrong. It is tragic and terrible that the girl died, and the mistakes of the doctors (or, whoever was in charge of assuring blood typing–perhaps a middleman) are horrific.
BUT.
They traveled to this country to take advantage of our organ transplant programs. It was offered to them, paid for, and provided by OTHER people–not them. Had it not been others’ generosity, their daughter would most certainly have died. If they sue–particularly for money–because this free six-figure+ surgery was provided to them, I’m going to get grumpy.
Certainly disciplinary actions are required, or at least massive improvements in the checks and balances. But suing for money…grrrrrrrrrrrr.
It is a misstatement to claim they are illegal aliens (a term notably absent from my post). They have not immigrated to our country; rather, like the conjoined twins recently released from UCLA, this family traveled from their home in Guadalajara, Mexico to have their daughter provided with care. It is unclear whether they intended to stay in the States following the surgery.
Of course, the term “smuggled” doesn’t make it sound like they took the legally correct and proper method of arriving in the country. They probably could have petitioned and appealed to heart strings, as the family of the girls joined at the head did.
Legal arrival or illegal, it would still be irksome if they came asking for free help, got free help, and then sued because the free help didn’t work the way they were hoping.
While I do not approve of the choice that the parents made in not making her organs avaiilable for transplant (if indeed any organs were suitable), the parents do not merit special blame for their decision. Their daughter’s death was due to malpractice by the transplant team and their mistrust of their doctors may be unfounded and irrational but it is understandable and, to my mind, forgivable.
As to the ‘free rider’ issue of their not being American citizens and refusing to contribute to the UNOS system from which they had tried to benefit (if indeed that is the case), every American citizen who is willing to accept a donated organ if needed but doesn’t have their organ donor card is equally to blame. A global lack of organs is the problem, not one family’s refusal to donate.
One group that does deserve criticism is the charity that rolled out the PR machine to solicit a direct donation for the girl after the botched transplant. It’s great that they wanted to help her, not so great that in order to do it they needed to make an end-around the UNOS list and deprive someone of the organs who potentially had a better chance of survival with them than the girl did.
So, somewhere, there were two sets of families who made the decision to donate their deceased child’s organs so another child can live. Often, these organs are harvested from people who have had accidental deaths, where the organs are still in good condition. Just imagine what the donor parents went through.
I work with dying children - I know how hard it is on us who work with them, let alone their families. A gift of life is a gift of life. If all transplantable organs had been deemed unsound for transplant, the doctors wouldn’t have asked.
I’m not going to pass judgement on the family - They’ve been through hell and back. I won’t go through the political implications - the fact that the child and the family were illegal immigrants, and all that jazz.
The tragedy is a human one - one of human error, and one with tragic consequences… for the child, her family, her friends, AND the medical staff involved. It’s also sad that the media circus got so big - and I have odd reservations about the self-proclaimed “godfather”, who seems to be making all sorts of declarations…
Who knows what will happen from here.
All that I know is that a child died and that, in itself, is sad. Not unique, not news-breaking, but awfully sad.
What would I have done in the family’s situation? I would have done what I’ve counselled many others to do, and what I’ve seen so many BRAVE parents do - make a unique gift so that another child can live.
Look people, read the original linked article!! The staff essentially told the family “Say goodbye to her now, we’re turning off the life support in a few minutes”! Up until that time (according to the article) they thought she might live!
I am just not prepared to condemn the parents for not immediately offering to donate her organs when they were in the state they were in, one of severe emotional turmoil compounded by the stresses of some mighty suspect behavior by the folks at Duke. The family actually had to get an emergency writ from a SCOTUS justice to allow the family benefactor and translator, who’d been with them thru the ordeal, to be allowed into the hospital! Duke tried to bar his presence after the first, botched transplant. WTF??
I apologize for stepping on toes over this impassioned issue, especially to you, Jimmy. But it was distressing to see this family immediately painted as a bunch of “illegal aliens” who refused organ donation, when we have no idea of what they were told, or when! I strongly suspect that the life-support was turned off against their wishes. If Mama is screaming “no, no, don’t kill my child” at this point, I doubt the family will respond well to a request for organ donation.
It was a tragedy that was handled very badly, and the cynical side of me suspects certain elements at the involved hospital don’t mind having the “they didn’t donate her organs!” stir to distract the media.
Mouthbreeder et. all with the illegal alien hijack:
what if the donated organs came from an illegal alien? Does being from one particular country decree you have more or less right to life and medical aid? Does the Hypocratic Oath not apply if your visa is pending? and how many of the 198 people on the waiting list would have been compatible with the first set of donated organs (as this girl wasn’t?).
that you could say “Let’s save a life, but make sure its a tax payers first” is an absolute disgrace.
Jimmy Quasar, to state it more clearly, I disagreed with your opinion, and expressed my disagreement badly. I apologize. I was prepared to dislike you because of your opinion expressed here, but that is a reflection on my own shortcomings.
istara, I tired to make it pretty clear when I brought up my issue that it wasn’t related and that I would start a new thread if need be. I don’t think anyone is confusing the two issues.
Ruffian, if you like, substitute the phrase “one who is in this country illegally” for “illegal alien”…my point still remains.
Twist – Big laffs in changing my username to something funny. Trust me, I’m dying over here. Saying simply " Does being from one particular country decree you have more or less right to life and medical aid?" is sidestepping the point. If one needs work done such as bypass surgery to save their life, then that is fine. But that is not the issue here. We are talking about someone from another country depleting a very limited supply of organs. You know, something tangible that if one person gets, another person may die.
You can call it a disgrace if you want to. If you are going to illegally enter a country then you can take advantage of a limited resource as soon as every person in need who is there legally has been taken care of first. What if your visa is pending? Come up with any phrasing you want to, but if a person was stopped by the police and subject to deportation, then those are the people I am talking about. I have no idea what a “pending visa” means as far as being in a country legally or illegally.
And I’d like to see some numbers on how many illegals provide organs.
Excuse me, but wasn’t her death actually casued by the fact that her original organs didn’t work? Which is why she needed a transplant in the first place? I mean, it’s a very horribly botched transplant attempt, but isn’t there some percentage of risk in transplant operations, say, x % of recipients will not make it? I’m not trying to excuse the person who mis-typed the organs’ blood, but, in heroic measures like this it seems to me we have to take a step back and realize the huge risk involved in transplants anyway. Heck, 100 years ago she would have had no hope. Or am I being hard-headed?
No, ninetywt, that sort of medical mistake is pure malpractice. She would have died eventually, but the procedure mis-done on her guaranteed no chance of life. The organs were clearly and unilaterally incompatible, in violation of the standard informed consent she (or rather her parents) would have had to give for the procedure.
It is dependent on one’s definition, I suppose. In my definition, an illegal alien–or its more politically correct term, “undocumented citizen,”-- was one who immigrates to the States for the purpose of relocation (permanent or considerably long term) without the legal paperwork and procedures in place. (But…I’ve since adjusted my definition, as I clarify later here.)
It sounds more like this family was coming for–for lack of a better word–a visit, albeit one with a medical purpose. They were “smuggled,” but the details are insufficient beyond use of that term, and I do not want to assume any more than I’m trying not to assume now. It’s bad enough that I am fighting irritation at something that hasn’t yet happened, and may not happen at all, without having a full understanding of what happened. If you follow all those happenings.
There are a lot of gaps in information, and a lot of the mixed feelings people have are based on drawing conclusions, correct or otherwise, to fill in those gaps (including why the family stated they would not donate her organs). Although I am wary, I’m still waiting for clarification and hope that something good can come out of all this, and that some of the ugliness stirred up around it will be settled in a pleasantly and surprisingly noble way. No idea what that would look like, just trying to fight my pessimism with optimism.
Sounds like she was considered an “illegal immigrant,” although no one has officially used that term. Seems my connotation differs from the common one, so I’ll adjust accordingly (as you noted, mouthbreather. )
And it seems according to that article, Twist of Fate, tax-paying status does play a role. (Although I’m sure a family could “shop around” until they found a hospital that could perform the operation and stay under the 5% requirement.)
Ugh. It seems my sinus infection and resulting headache is making this more convoluted than I intended. Hope some part of this post makes sense–I kept making adjustments because each preview revealed new posts that had something interesting to say and respond to.
But first, Qadgop, I have to say that was a classy apology. Nice to see such things in the Pit from time to time!
Actually mouthbreather, the username thing was an accident. My apologies.
If someone needs help, and the resources are there to help them, then help them. If she was jumped up the queue, then it was because she needed a transplant quickly to save her life.
And I have no issue with parents doing everything they can to save their childs life.
I can’t give you stats as to the breakup of organ donors. I just wanted to bring up the possibility.
Twisty, couple points I want to address (and no worries about the name thing) –
I agree, when it is a service they need. Not when it is an item that is very scare and other citizens of that country may need it.
Yes, but as my link above shows, there are 198 people who are in the same boat. They may not have the dire need right now that she did, but you can’t even really calculate what sort of impact this will have on the next person on the list, or 10 people down, or 50 people down the list – the fact that this girl got 2 sets pushes all these people (who are obviously in bad health as well) 2 spots lower. It may seem like no one was harmed, but ultimately we don’t know. What if person #19 on the list has a year to live? And they make it down to #1 and wait and wait and never get the transplant they need? I realize this is hypothetical but my point in bringing it up is that we just don’t know. And as far as her being jumped to the front of the line – I have not heard if there was anyone else in as bad shape that she was in. But it would not surprise me to hear (this is ONLY speculation) that there was one other person who was in just as bad shape that Duke would be pushing UNOS very hard to help them out with Jessica. They committed a major blunder and I’d have to imagine they were doing everything in their power to cover their asses.
It’s a fair question. But I can’t imagine that non-citizens provide even close to 1% of the organ donations. QtM or someone else in the know can correct me If I’m wrong here – but isn’t having access to one’s medical history important when accessing whether or not one is a viable donor? Doctors can’t have this information accessible in other countries, can they? And the illegals won’t have a SSN, a drivers license, anything for ID. Or is it that organs can be assessed after they are harvested with no prior knowledge of donor’s history? In any case, if it turns out that illegal alien donors provide more than I think they do, then I’m willing to give this some more thought. However, I just can’t imagine that being the case.
Now, a question for you. I am inferring from your “If someone needs help, and the resources are there to help them, then help them.” post that you think that the 5% “non-citizen” rule that UNOS has established is unreasonable. Do you think there should be any limit at all? It’s a fact that there are not even enough organs to go around for US citizens. Acknowledging that, should a US based group with ~99% donors being US citizens provide organs for anyone in the world who needs them, provided that they can get their feet on American soil (legally or otherwise)?
She entered the country illegally, but for months prior to her surgery there were fundraisers and things conducted, with great publicity, around here for her. I’m as confident as I can be of something I cannot find documentation about that her status as a legal alien temporarily resident in this country was regularized long ago.
As for the actual organ donation question, I’m not prepared to defend her mother’s decision, but I suspect strongly she might not have been asked to do so (don’t know, and none of the press I’ve read on it has said), because the actual reason behind her death was that the rejection of the first, mismatched heart-lung set was causing massive failure in other organs, and the second transplant was too late to turn that around. That’s all documented at www.duke.edu if anybody wants to look it up.
