Waiting for Babies to die

Great Debates
1

I just read something on Organ donation in GQ that prompted this:

My daughter was born this past October.

Because of an irregularity she was delivered by Caesarian.

As they were prepping my wife, I waited outside the OR in my scrubs until I could go in and witness the birth.

While this was going on a man also in scrubs, clearly a Dr. approached. He was not my wife’s Dr.

Then I was called in. I saw my daughter delivered by my wife’s Dr. (who also happens to be one of my best friends.) It was marvelous. My daughter was perfect, and my wife was brave and strong.

Though I hadn’t cried since before I was a teenager, I cried then. Tears of happiness. I was overpowered by what had just occured.

After it was done and they were preparing to move my wife into the recovery room, they suggested gently that I wait outside the OR (so I wouldn’t be in the way.)

I went outside and the Dr. guy was there again.

“Mr. ___?” he asked.

“Yes.”

“Have you considered organ donation in the event your child does not survive?” His EXACT words.

I breathed deep and the words came out. Again exactly as I spoke them. Low and careful. “Right now I am celebrating the birth of my daughter. Ask me later.”

The Dr. nodded, but said nothing. He was around in the general area for the next 15 minutes or so until it became clear that my daughter was perfectly healthy (my supposition,) and then he left.

He never asked me again.

When I had time to think a little later, I became absolutely furious with this Doctor. How dare he intrude. He was obviously waiting there in the hopes that my daughter would die. He wanted to gut her and rip her apart for her internal organs, right then and there!

At this most sublimely beautiful moment in my life, he appeared, like a ghoul. I should have strangled him on the spot.

A few days later when we had gotten home from the hospital I told my wife the story.

“Maybe he was there becasue a baby was dying,” she said.

Then of course, it hit me.

What if it had been our daughter? What if she was dying because she needed a transplant. I know what I would want. I would want Dr.s standing by, ready, at the birth of every potential donor. I would want them to be prepared for every possibility to save my daughter. I wouldn’t care about whose feelings they hurt doing so. My daughter’s life would be far to important for such concerns.

That Dr. must have known exactly what he was doing when he asked me that question. He must have been aware of the pain that it would cause me, the monstrous innapropriateness of it. He asked anyway. He wasn’t there to take my daughter. He was there on the off chance he might be able to save a life.

If it had been the other way around I would want Dr.s with the willful insensitivity to ask that question.

I donate blood not to help others, but because it gives me and my family precedence if we should ever need blood.

I am an organ donor because by the time they come for my organs they will be no good to me anyway.

I copied this post from someone in GQ. I know you are not supposed to copy posts in there entirety, but I’m gonna break this rule because quite frankly I’m too disgusted to reply to the poster. For that same reason I won’t identify who I copied it from (though I suppose you can find it if you look :slight_smile:

"
In Virginia, blood donors get paid $130.00. Some places have Plasma donor centers,
they pay.

                Also aren't sperm and ova paid for?

                This being national donor (sucker) awareness week, I made out my Will to specificy my
                body parts are not to be donated, but if my brother gets an offer in six figures to
                consider selling.

                My family is against organ giving anyway, but if one of them ever gets weak in the
                head and starts thinking of being 'good willed' I will refuse to honour any such notion.

                Let these people who wail about organ shortages start paying.

                Pennsylvania is thinking of paying the donor's family $300.00 and telling them what
                they may or may not spend it on.

                Heck with that.

                Want my organs? If they are in good condition be willing to pony up $100,000.00 for a
                kidney and lots more for the heart."

I live in PA BTW.

Anybody care to guess what my debate is?

“Don’t just stand there in Uffish thought!”
-The Caterpillar

2

If you get sick & need an organ you’ll change your tune. I have written on my organ card “take whatever you want & use the rest for teaching”. It’s better than having it rot in the ground. They best memorial is not an expensive funeral, but saving a few lives.

Now, if I am still alive, they had better come up with some REAL money, for say, that extra kidney. But after I’m dead, I have no use for it, OR the $. How will YOU spend the money?

3

Daniel:

Either I wrote my OP very badly, or you completely missed my point.

4

Is not your point that one is a sucker if you donate your organs? If not, please explain.I reread it, and that’s what I read.

5

He completely missed your point. It happens with him. A lot. You’ll get used to it.

6

Scylla: I went over to GQ, and after reading the posts there, I understand your point. You put your counter-arguement 1st, then the point you are countering, next. If you read just your post, it looks like you are posting someones arguement, THEN, putting you (selfish) view in. What you did make sense, IF one reads the thread in GQ, but not by itself. My opinions still stand, but they are directed to “that other guy”, not you. You, you’re a saint (I’m exaggerating, but the compliment is meant).

Otto: Pffftttt.

7

Everybody gets so pissed off about education in the US of A… Please let’s just try reading and then worry about the rest.

Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley

8

Jois: Huh??

9

Scylla,

** Then of course, it hit me.
What if it had been our daughter? What if she was dying because she needed a transplant. I know what I would want. I would want Dr.s standing by, ready, at the birth of every potential donor. I would want them to be prepared for every possibility to save my daughter **

I was so mad that I was on the edge of my chair because of that * doctor * and then your ‘it hit me’. Wow!

I wish Majormd were here, I guess it must be a difficult job to have to approach any parent or family member to ask that question. I too, am listed as an organ donator on my driver’s license, but it is still irritating that my husband could overrule that, if he outlives me.

Here in Georgia, you even get money off the price of your driver’s license if you sign a donor card, and yet while I was waiting my turn to renew my license. A number of people said, ‘no’ and paid the full amount. I don’t think I even understand what the religious reasons would be, not to donate.

‘Mr. Shields had challenged Mr. Lincoln to a duel, and that, as the challenged party, it was Mr. Lincoln’s right to choose the weapons.
Mr. Lincoln responded, “How about cow-dung at five paces?”’

10

Anti Pro:

Nurses have to ask that question, too. On the other hand, most doctors I know refuse to bring up the subject with families of their patients who’ve died because it could be construed as a conflict of interest. (“Sorry I couldn’t save your dad. Now, can I have his kidneys?”)

Actually, they recently changed the protocol at my hospital so the nurses aren’t allowed to broach the subject with the families; the organ donor people must be called at every death (or potential death) and THEY do the asking. There were some major staff changes with our organ donor people (who are not affiliated with the hospital at all, BTW) and some of these people are real cretins.

We call them “vultures”. It’s especially disturbing when the patient isn’t even dead yet, may very well not die, but is such a potentially great donor that the donation people hover around in hopes the patient will die. As a nurse, this is the time when I’d really like to slap the s**t out of those people.

In one case, they practically kidnapped the injured mother of a baby who had just been pronounced brain dead after a car wreck. No one could find the poor woman anywhere; eventually it was discovered that the organ donor people had found her, taken her in her wheelchair to some secluded room without telling anyone where they were taking her, and talked to her for about 2 hours. I don’t know if they coerced her or not, but they gave her back to the medical staff once she signed the papers allowing the donation.

I’ve also had these people chew me a new one when my brain dead patient’s family decided they didn’t want to donate. The chick (who is not a nurse or a doctor) told me it must be my fault the family decided not to donate, that they must have asked a question to which I provided the wrong answer. This chick would not leave the poor family alone until the dead girl’s mom finally said to the charge nurse, in tears, “please keep her away from me!”

I am all for organ donation. I believe it’s a wonderful gift and it can help the bereaved family to cope with their loss.

I just don’t think there’s any excuse to coerce people, to badger them in their most trying hour, or to be a freaking ghoul about it. People have the choice to say no; if they do, that choice should be respected. Organ donation is not for everyone.

By the way, signing your driver’s license to be a donor is not enough. Even with this evidence of your wishes, your family can refuse to donate your organs. (They can also decide in favor of donation, even if you haven’t signed anything to that effect.) It’s so important for family members to talk and let each other know their feelings on this important issue. Also, doing this can keep those vultures at bay.

11

Holly: “I just don’t think there’s any excuse to coerce people, to badger them in their most trying hour, or to be a freaking ghoul about it. People have the choice to say no; if they do, that choice should be respected.” Surely as a nurse you realize that in an hour or so (very shortly) after death the organs become useless to anyone dead or alive. It’s too bad no one thinks about these things BEFORE they are in that sort of situation and therefore ready, willing and able to donate their relatives organs, but there are other people who’s LIVES CAN BE SAVED with these organs. I believe people who do not donate their organs are just selfish bastards.

12

Scylla, you should probably have put quote tags around the (selfish) text that you reproduce. It threw me off too. But indeed, s/he is being selfish and clueless and you are taking the humane and commonsensical position.

13

I think that the few medical professionals you encounter who are so gung-ho on getting those organs out of there (“practically kidnapping” someone, etc.) are that way because for so many years, decades really, we had the technology to harvest organs, but the relatives always instinctively went “ick!” whenever the subject arose. So a lot of organs that could have been used to save lives went to waste, and a lot of health care professionals got extremely frustrated by it.

So I think those are the ones who rush right in with the coolers full of crushed ice while the body is still warm.

Also, people like paramedics and EMTs really have this aspect pushed during their training. “Be alert for organ donation possibilities when you’re first on the scene at a car wreck”, etc., again I think because for so many years this was totally neglected.

Pendulums swing back and forth. I suppose someday we’ll be back to complaining that “nobody seems to care anymore”. “I had to practically twist that doctor’s arm to get him to take my daughter’s heart and give it to someone else…”

Scylla, FWIW, I’d like to point out that the poster whose quote you quoted in your OP has also posted to virtually every other “organ donation” thread, too, including some very old ones. So apparently it’s a very big deal to her, too, only from the other direction.

Oh, and not to jump on the pileup or anything (but hey, you’re a big boy, you can take it! :smiley: ) --but, golly Moses, babe, put a whacking big quote like that in UBB quotes next time, ‘kay? No wonder it took sixty-leven posts before we could all figure out whatcha talkin’ about… :smiley:

"i dunno, i think he wants us all to donate our livers…naw, that’s not it, he wants us all to NOT donate our livers…you’re both wrong, he’s just talkin’ about when his little girl was born…

“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen

14

Inertia:

Not if the person is brain dead, but physically alive. Brain death allows you to keep the corpse warm for quite a while.

I absolutely agree with this. I also wish people would discuss other things along this line before those difficult decisions have to be made. Most people don’t.

Yes, those organs can save lives, but as it stands now people have the right to NOT donate, for whatever reason.
Also, the process of organ recovery is traumatic for the dead person’s family. Here’s how it typically goes:

1.The patient is in a terrible accident and the prognosis is grim. The family is confused, shocked, terrified.

2.It becomes clear that the patient is getting worse and may in fact be brain dead. Tests must be run to see if the patient is really dead.

3.Eventually, the physician is sure the patient is brain dead. He tells the family. The family has no idea what this means; repeated explanations go straight over their heads because they are too much in shock to absorb much information. All they know is their loved one is still warm, his heart still beats, and it looks like he’s still breathing. The nurse calls the organ people, if they’re not already hovering nearby.

4.The organ people talk to the family. After a varying length of time, the family consents to donation. Sometimes a single person holds out and must be convinced to donate before the donation can proceed; it doesn’t matter if the patient has an organ donor card.

5.Two days of tests, phone calls, treatments. The nurse gives the corpse fluids and medications and blood; she turns it from side to side, suctions its lungs, monitors its vital signs. The organ people keep saying the recovery will take place in a couple of hours, but there is always a delay. Sometimes (quite often, actually), we find out at the last minute that the corpse has hepatitis or some other common thing and his organs are therefore useless.

6.Finally, the corpse is taken to the OR. Several hours later, the recovery is complete and the nurse calls the family to tell them it’s over. At that time, when the lifeless body begins to cool, the family can accept the fact of the death and begin to grieve.

So, yes, I agree that donation is wonderful. I also understand why a family would decide against it, and I respect their right to do so.

15

Scylla wrote, in the OP:

Okay, I’ll guess that your debate is:

If we start allowing people to charge large amounts of money for donated organs, they’re going to start having lots of babies and doing their best to have them come out intentionally stillborn so that they can make a living off of selling their dead babies’ organs.

How’s that?

16

Scylla:

Four things.

  1. Congratulations to you and Mrs. Scylla on the birth of your daughter. I hope everybody is happy and healthy six months later.

  2. You really should let yourself cry more often.

  3. Could you maybe provide a link to that post in GQ, so that people as lazy as I can go read the thread without having to look for it?

  4. I bet yours isn’t as beautiful as mine :D.

Okay, five things.

  1. How are things working out with the groundhogs?
17

Tracer:

My goof. I should have had big UBB quotes about that part you responded to. I copied it from another thread. All I put were the little quotes, so there is some confusion. It is most assuredly NOT my view.

“Don’t just stand there in Uffish thought!”
-The Caterpillar

18

Kaylasdad:

It got moved to great debates. Here’s the link.
http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001819.html

The groundhog massacre got rained out. It rained all 3 days. Next week maybe.

“Don’t just stand there in Uffish thought!”
-The Caterpillar

19

Ahem, Inertia, what about people like me ? I cannot donate any organs, tissue, skin, bones or even blood, because I have Hepatitis C. Even if I could I wouldn’t because of the risk to the person(s) who would recieve these things.

And what about people who have religious reasons for not donating ? You know different people have always had different beliefs concerning the proper way of dealing with the remains of thier dead.

Just saying that people who don’t donate are selfish bastards is, IMHO, just wrong.

“Ayesha, Who can bend minds with her spoon” sig. by WallyM7 profile by UncleBeer, thanks guys.

Voted SDMB Biggest Flirt (Female) and Least Shy

20

Ayesha-
Even people with hepatitis C can donate. Some people needing transplants are so sick that accepting an organ from a person with Hep C is the only way to avoid immediate death. Some organ recipients already have Hep C (it’s not rare). Your organs could save many lives.

I agree, Ayesha. I have (I presume) one healthy kidney to spare; am I a selfish bastard for not giving it away? I have some extra money in my bank account that could save the lives of who-knows-who-many disadvantaged children. Am I a selfish bastard if I don’t give away everyextra penny to charity?