How much safer/healthier is it really? I’ve read a few of Cecil’s columns where he touched on it, and basically said outright that organically grown food isn’t necessarily healthier, but I wanted to hear some more facts on the subject.
Personally, I’ve never been too concerned with the issue, but I got into a debate last night with a friend who seemed very adamant that organic is the way to go, and I told her I’ll find the facts on it.
The floor is yours.
Well, I’m no expert, but I’m not entirely sure the healthy-ness of the fruit or vegetables is the issue – it’s the lack of pesticides. So if you consider chemical-free food healthier, then yes organic food is healthier. But I get the impression you are wondering if the vitamin content is higher or something. Are you?
There is evidence that the pesticides in produce are dangerous to children; this is the main reason I buy organic produce. It’s not like you can wash it off, though washing does help. It gets into the fruit, like the skins of apples and grapes. This I understand from what I’ve read.
suppose one cultivates an organic garden in contaminated soil…it’s still “organic” (because no pesticides, etc. were used), but it still may not be healthy
I actually wasn’t thinking of the vitamin content, but if that is a factor, I certainly want to hear about it, though I don’t believe it is.
I’m more interested in hearing about how dangerous, exactly, the various pesticides really are (to children as well as adults), and how much safer organic pesticides are than synthetic ones.
I basically want to hear the whole straight dope on organic vs. non-organic food. Any issues that you all feel are important to know, please share.
It’s my understanding that food labeled as ‘organic’ is tested for pesticide residue (or the soil is tested, or some such).
I know that my sister was growing & selling organic herbs. She got into a fight with the city over spraying for mosquitos and weeds and the like, because she would have lost the right to use the ‘organic’ label for several years once her tests came back showing residue.
This may be state law rather than fed, though.
What it comes down to, is there’s some chemicals used in agriculture which are potentially dangerous to humans, but the vast majority are not. Of course, some of the dangerous ones may not be known yet, so organic methods err very far on the side of safety, forbidding the use of all non-naturally occuring chemicals. Of course, there’s plenty of naturally-occuring chemicals which are harmful, too, but the reasoning is that since we’ve been dealing with those for a longer time, we have a better idea if they’re harmful or not. In the end, though, the debate comes down to a matter of economics: On some scales, such as a personal vegetable garden, organic methods are actually cheaper than chemicals. However, once you get to the size of commercial farms, most organic techniques cease to be economical, and are hence not used by most farmers. (A few still do, and can stay in business because they’ve got a corner on a specific market, namely those consumers who absolutely insist on organic foods.) As an example: The typical non-organic method of dealing with weeds is herbicides. The typical organic method is to pull them up by hand. Now, most amature gardeners do it because they enjoy gardening, and may consider weeding to be relaxing, so you can’t count the labor as a cost of having the garden. On a farm scale, however, you’re going to need to hire a lot of folks if you intend to do the weeding by hand, and they will most likely want to be paid. This adds up pretty quickly, so you probably want to use some other method of dealing with weeds on a farm.
“Organic” is one of those feel-good words, like “natural”, that has no standard definition.
Tampa:
Nah. It’s one of those feel-good words like “kosher.” Try to sell a food you’ve produced yourself as either organic or kosher (without actually having produced an organic or kosher foodstuff) and see how far you get before you’re sliced, diced, and sauteed by Uncle Sam’s Food Authorities.
I think the evidence for any health benefit of organic is pretty thin. Most skeptically-minded people (which is what you’ll find here) will reject it. Although we can’t say for sure that standard pesticides are perfectly safe, they have been tested and they’re used in fractions of the amounts required to cause effects in humans. And if you’re talking about trace chemicals, foods are full of natural things that cause cancer and other problems in lab rats in high doses.
So the benefits of organic are hypothetical, but there are definite risks. Organic produce carries a much higher chance of being contaminated with the E.coli and salmonella bacteria, because they’re often fertilized with manure.
Well, the nutritional value of the produce is the same. Whenever you hear about planats having less vitamins & such as they are grown in “depleted soil”, you know it’s by someone who could not pass biology.
But, the pesticides are another thing altogether. The pesticides are THOUGHT to be “safe”, but you never know. A good washing will help a lot.
However, “organic” also often means fresher, and since it is not artifically ripened, tastier.
So, if the extra $$ does not worry you, get organic, just don’t worry if you can’t get it.
So what exactly does the word “organic” refer to? Is it just the absence of synthetic pesticides? Are there other things involved.
This link University of California Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education Program has a lot of information.
There is more to it than just substituting cow poop for chemical fertilizers.
Also, this article http://www.tiac.net/users/seeker/organic.html suggests that currently conventional farming methods are not as efficient as one might think.
I don’t think there’s any federal definition of “organic”, which was my point. I imagine some states or cities have their own standards.
There are certainly Europe-wide laws governing organic foods. Don’t know for sure about anywhere else
There is work in progress toward a national standard, but there is a great deal of controversy over what should, and should not, be allowed in a nationally certified organic product. You can read about it here if you wish.
Currently, some states have created organic certifications. California may have been the first, as you will often see a product labelled as adhering to the California standards.
There’s a proposal: Subpart C - Organic Crop, Wild Crop, Livestock, and Handling Requirements
GLICKMAN ANNOUNCES NEW PROPOSAL FOR NATIONAL ORGANIC STANDARDS
National Organic Program Proposed Rule Labeling and Market Information Fact Sheet
First of all, I reject the above statements that say that the pesticides/herbicides that we use are “perfectly safe.” If that is so, why did they just ban Dursban? There have been many, many “safe” chemicals that have been later proven to be unsafe. ::fake cough:: DDT! ::fake cough::
Second, CurtC says “Organic produce carries a much higher chance of being contaminated with the E.coli and salmonella bacteria, because they’re often fertilized with manure.” I wonder if he, or anyone else, could provide a source for this claim. I would very much like to know where it comes from.
Third, I want to address the definition of the word “organic” as it refers to gardening and farming. There are several accepted definitions of “organic.” And as some posters have already pointed out, the legislators are really duking it out over what the federal laws will be.
There are a couple of things that most commonly accepted definitions of “organic” have in common, though. One is that the organic farmer does not use chemical herbicides or pesticides. The question of “chemical” fertilizers is hotly debated. Some organic farmers forswear the use of products like Miracle-Gro. Others feel that that is okay. A big area of contention is whether treated sewage sludge (like Milorganite) should be allowed in organic farming.
But organic farming is more of a philosophy than a bunch of rules about what you can and can not do. Organic farming is about working with nature rather than fighting against her. The idea is that by using organic methods, you will not have to resort to potentially harmful chemicals. An example: if you compost your garden waste and use the finished compost to fertilize your beds, then you will not have to use expensive chemical fertilizers which can lead to phosphate runoff and other nasty things. Another example: If you prune your roses properly, they will be far less vulnerable to black-spot, so you won’t “need” to spray. A third example: if you mulch your beds, fewer weeds will grow, so the weeds can be easily controlled by pulling or hoeing.
People who choose to live “green” understand that our choices about what foods we purchase and eat have greater implications than just tonight’s supper. We understand that food that seems cheap at the supermarket might really be very expensive in the long run. That 99-cent-per-pound tomato was trucked in from god-knows-where at a huge expense in fuel and emissions. It was picked green and gassed to make it “ripe,” meaning that it has less vitamins than a tomato picked ripe. And it probably tastes like cardboard. The locally grown tomato (even if it is not strictly “organic”) will taste better and be healthier for the body and the environment. It might not even cost more. Fortunately, organic farming and “local” farming go hand-in-hand.
I obviously feel that there are benefits–nutritional, environmental, and social–to eating organically produced food and using organic cotton, etc. But the majority of what I eat is not organic. Price and availability are factors, here, as is the fact that I am as susceptible as anyone to eating what is quick and easy. (I don’t think that Sorrento’s pizzeria uses organic cheese.) But as I go on, I am using more and more organics, and I would hope others do the same.
The evidence is still out as to whether organics are “really healthier,” but it seems likely that they are.
Green Bean wrote:
Basically because of a couple of factors, both political. First, new laws about saftety margins for children caused the exposure level to be reduced to one one-thousandth of what can cause effects in rodents, instead of the normal one one-hundredth. Second, the EPA chose to ignore data that would refute this, data which was collected on paid human volunteers, because the EPA thinks this is unethical and therefore the data is “forbidden knowledge.” You can read more at EPA ‘Ethics,’ Not Science, Sink Pesticide.
The developer of DDT rightly won a Nobel prize for it. It’s saved literally hundreds of millions of human lives, mostly children. The data linking it to reduced populations of some large birds is weak. Since its use has been reduced in recent years, at least a million people a year die who would not if DDT were not restricted. See 100 things you should know about DDT.
In 1996, two of the biggest outbreaks of food poisoning from the deadliest strains of E.coli were traced to organic lettuce and unpasteurized apple juice sold in natural food stores. Using a CDC listing of 488 confirmed cases of E. coli outbreaks, Dennis Avery found that 24% of these cases in 1996 could be linked to consuming organic or natural foods.
Myth: Conventional farmers do not use manure.
Fact: Just about any farmer who can get manure will use it. It’s a very cheap and effective fertilizer and has been used for thousands of years. It is also quite safe if handled properly. Under the new national organic standards, soon to be law, in order to receive the label “organic” farmers will not be able to use manure at any time during the 90 days before harvest. There is no such standard for conventional produce.
Myth: “Organic” doesn’t mean anything.
Fact: “Organic” is defined legally in 17 states, including Virginia (where I live). Most synthetic pesticides may not be used on the land for 3 years prior to harvest (some states require only 1 or 2 years). Because some states do not have any rules regarding “organic”, and other states have slightly different rules, the new national standard will legally make “organic” mean the same thing in every state. Currently in Virginia, if a vegetable, fruit, cheese, milk, or packaged good is labelled “organic” it must have been inspected by an independent organization and received certification. “Organic” means something here.
Myth: Pesticides are not dangerous in small quantities, if they are banned it’s usually political, and there is probably no pesticide residue in conventionally grown produce anyway.
Fact: FDA studies suggest otherwise–emphasizing special hazardous risks to children. Five or six years ago, in June I believe if memory serves me correctly, a study from the FDA came out with great fanfare and press stating just this danger. Two days later there was nothing in the papers about it. This is typical of most food safety stories. We hear so much about what is good and bad to eat, many folks just tune it out and the news quickly disappears.
Then, of course, there are the workers in the fields who have been known to have become sick or to have even died as a result of pesticide contact.
Several pesticides that were once commonly in use are now banned. The manufacturer almost always cries “politics”. For all I know that may be so in some cases. But with Dursban, the risk of harm seems to be very real–despite smokescreens from the pesticide lobby. Plug “Dursban” into your favorite search engine and after reading information from several sites, judge for yourself.
Finally, several different respected sources, such as The New York Times and Consumer Reports have tested conventional and organic produce and found residue of pesticides in conventional foods and not organic. **ABC’s 20/20 **recently reported that they had found no residue of pesticides in conventional or organic produce. When questioned about their testing, ABC was unable to produce their results. They have just suspended the story’s producer, reprimanded the reporter and made an on-the-air-apology. Unfortunately a lot of people will not see the apology who saw the heavily hyped original show and its rerun.
Many studies on the safety of pesticides, according to critics, do not take into account the long-term effects of a lifetime of constantly consuming small amounts of a variety of pesticides. A few cigarettes may be harmless too, but look what happens after a lifetime of smoking.
Myth: We know organic produce is not more nutritious.
Fact: Is organic produce more nutritious? The question is the wrong one. The real question is “Do modern conventional agribusiness practices harm the nutritional content of the produce?” The answer is unknown because there has been remarkably little testing done.
We do know fruits and vegetables are incredibly nutritious and can help prevent diseases, including cancer. Mom was right. Your veggies are miracle foods.
Conventional farmer’s often replant the same crops on the same land year after year. This not only is destructive to the soil, but may require additional pesticide use as the area attracts heavier quantities of certain pests looking for that particular food source. Conventional agribusiness crop selection is often not based on nutrition or even taste, but on which crops can be cheaply grown and survive the week-long trip to the supermarket still looking relatively fresh. Then there are the questionable practices of irradiation and genetic engineering. The debate is almost exclusively about whether these foods are safe, not whether the nutritional benefit from the crops is being reduced. Shouldn’t we study this more before turning our crops and food supply over to these practices? It’s a question a lot of us think should have been asked over and over again during the history of modern agribusiness.
How does all this effect the nutritional make-up of the produce? Your guess is as good as mine. Conventional produce techniques vary widely. It’s quite possible that the conventional grower of your just-purchased supermarket produce was a fine fellow putting forth a good effort to grow nutritious and safe foods. But perhaps not. Unfortunately we know little about the growing practice history of the average piece of conventional supermarket produce, but we know a lot about the average piece of certified organic produce.
Organic growing is not only done to prevent pesticide residue in food and the environment. It is part of a whole process that respects the entire eco-system. Instead of fighting nature, the idea is to work in harmony with nature to produce safe and nutritious produce.
Myth: Organic is actually worse for the environment because it requires more land then conventional produce.
Fact: Both organic and conventional farmers lose about 30% of their crops to pests. Organic practices do not produce fewer crops per acre than conventional practices. What does seem bad, however, for the environment is the heavy pesticide and chemical fertilizer runoff into our water supplies from conventional produce practices.
My little garden at work could be certified as organic, no pesticides and only compost, peat moss, and sterile manure were used when the garden was prepared this spring. If you don’t like weeding my tip is to plant things very close to each other so that your vegetables smother the weeds. You use a little more seed but weeding is a small task once things get growing. I plant in raised beds with enough space between rows that I can run the tiller between to mulch the weeds that pop up.
When it comes to foods being contaminated with E. Coli one should consider that contamination can happen as the food is processed and a report I just saw stated that not all strains of E.Coli are harmful. I guess that John Stossel(?) of 20/20 is in a heap of trouble for mis-reporting this information on organic foods and some want him fired.
Anyways, I would prefer to purchase organic fruits and veggies and free run chicken and eggs. They are not as available and are very expensive to buy here. I am able to buy very good beef here from a Halal butcher, the animals to be butchered are fed a diet of hay and grain (no silage) and are free ranged. It makes a difference in the taste and the quality and despite this it costs much less than the poorer quality meats at the big grocers.